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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

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    Rainy Day Woman Array MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    It's overrated and in my opinion outdated. I'm not entirely against cohabitation and other relationships that border on more traditional arrangements though. For those who must marry I would strongly advise prenups. People have an averse reaction to that. People want to believe it's forever when they marry and so signing a contract is seen as an admittance things may not work out, which can look like the person has no faith in the relationship. I was against the idea of prenups when I got married. What can I say other than I was young, idealistic, and very stupid.
    Yeah. I think it's smart for everyone and would stop a lot of abuses in the court system. You negotiate BEFORE the end of the marriage. Before revenge and pettiness get mixed up in legal messes.

    People don't realize you can, together, put provisions in there but you have to agree, uh..together. Just because it's a prenup doesn't mean it can't be fair.

    And if you can't do that to the happiness of both parties BEFORE the marriage? Eh. How are you going to handle compromises during the marriage? It's telling.

    Personally, I am neutral about marriage. I have friends who are happily married. But with me and my SO, we both don't have a driving need for it and other than the tax break, I don't see a greater +. It doesn't reflect some greater commitment, in my eyes. But I get that it does for others. I just don't see it that way. We also don't want children. So, that makes it easy.
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    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    It's overrated and in my opinion outdated. I'm not entirely against cohabitation and other relationships that border on more traditional arrangements though. For those who must marry I would strongly advise prenups. People have an averse reaction to that. People want to believe it's forever when they marry and so signing a contract is seen as an admittance things may not work out, which can look like the person has no faith in the relationship. I was against the idea of prenups when I got married. What can I say other than I was young, idealistic, and very stupid.
    Sorry for the hard lesson... I've felt for a long time now that prenups should be a mandatory standard for marriage licenses, and that couples should have to really work their tails off to get out of making prenups.. like they should have to go to couples counseling, an educational class on prenups, a designated intermediary person they both agree on in case of a divorce pending, etc.

    It takes the awkwardness out of asking each other, protects the young and dumb, and it becomes a standard for divorce to go a lot smoother and without all of the ugly I see from people.
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  3. #1593
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Sorry for the hard lesson... I've felt for a long time now that prenups should be a mandatory standard for marriage licenses, and that couples should have to really work their tails off to get out of making prenups.. like they should have to go to couples counseling, an educational class on prenups, a designated intermediary person they both agree on in case of a divorce pending, etc.

    It takes the awkwardness out of asking each other, protects the young and dumb, and it becomes a standard for divorce to go a lot smoother and without all of the ugly I see from people.
    Yeah. And this no sex before marriage thing that religious people do (do people really still do this?) seems foolish. Waiting until wedding night to find out there is no sexual chemistry is a big gamble.

  4. #1594
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Yeah. And this no sex before marriage thing that religious people do (do people really still do this?) seems foolish. Waiting until wedding night to find out there is no sexual chemistry is a big gamble.
    Meh, I'm less keen on this.. sex is a learned trait. I mean, maaaybe on the off chance you'll get in bed and discover they're the sloppiest most awful kisser ever or something, but mostly I found that I could ppreeeetty much tell long before I hopped into bed if the night was going to be a fun one or not. Sex is a skill that is learned, so if you're not super great at it but are open to learning it can get a lot better a lot quicker.. and the chemistry, albeit not 100% accurate at times, you can typically find and tell long before the deed is done. Waiting until marriage in some cultures I can absolutely see the practicality in.. but if you're a non-traditional, it doesn't make much sense.
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  5. #1595
    Senior Member Array YUI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    That's cool. My response to you would be the same if you were female. It has nothing to do with bristling at not wanting marriage, or taking men off the "market" or whatever. I sort of don't see the importance of marriage, really.

    More so, my response was about introspection of how and why one got where they were, how they deal with pain and anger. Retreat or overcome? I'm an overcome person.

    I wasn't to blame for being born into a family where I was beaten black and blue. Getting tortured. I wasn't to blame for any of the drama of my family life. Shit.

    But I had to do WORK. Introspective work. That's what I mean by work. Growth.

    To not view men as shit. To not view women as helpless. I had to filter all the anger I had. I could have said "fuck that." and repeated the same patterns I saw in front of me. I could've opted out of dating because I had been treated like shit and cheated on. Oops. Burned again. Never stopping to think why? Just accepting life is handing me shit because that's life and people, I guess. Nah. I was bringing that drama to me, I didn't even realize it consciously.

    Long story short, I got rid of that anger. I've forgiven any aspect of abusive I suffered.

    If I didn't, I wouldn't be impenetrably strong. Strong without righteous anger feels much different, let me tell you.

    But different folks, different strokes.

    That's why I didn't want to let my mother off the hook. This happened to you? Shit sucks. Do some goddamn work. I have to. Why should you get to lick your wounds in a corner? (I said it nicer than that )

    So if you were my father, I would probably say something similar. Since you aren't - Do you.
    In a way, your responses to my posts are pretty much why I don't trust women. I've spent a few long posts trying to explain where I'm coming from on this MGTOW thing and why I can't be bothered dealing with women IRL. And you keep coming back with a response to the effect of "Well, that's because you're broken. You're damaged goods. You just don't know any better. Maybe someday you'll get better like my mother and I did, and you'll see that you were wrong."

    This is why women are scary. They just don't listen to men. They refuse to understand that No means No, when it comes from a man. I'm 60 years old. I know myself and my story and my life. I've been married twice for a total of 20 years, and I've been in many relationships in between. I'm not some kid wet behind the ears speaking of things I know nothing about. I'm trying to tell you my story, and you keep responding that I'm just broken and don't know what I'm talking about.

    Please understand, I'm not trying to be snarky. I know that you mean well, and at the end of your latest post you did at least acknowledge what I was saying to the point of saying, "Do you." I'm grateful that you yielded at least that much ground.

    But like I say, this exchange between us has been a good example of why women are scary. I try to explain where I stand, and they just don't hear my story. In effect, they respond, "You're broken. You don't know what you're talking about. I know your life and your needs better than you."

    And I say, "Okay, whatever." And I back away slowly, and then I turn and run. As fast as I can.

    See how that works?
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  6. #1596
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to talk about how vile and abusive men are but still insist that men marry them, father their kids, support them, and solve all their problems. MGTOW men, on the other hand, are saying that women are vicious and vindictive, and with porn available and housekeeping appliances available men no longer need women in their lives at all. Or at least men shouldn't marry women and get caught in the legal traps that marriage represents. Marriage is just a contract asking the government to referee the relationship, with the government taking the side of the woman whenever there's a dispute.
    I'm not sure where you are finding these women. I know plenty who will speak of how vile and abusive one or two specific men were to them or someone they know, but I've never heard someone indict all men. Nor, for that matter, do I know any women who insisted that a man do any of the things you list, though I know quite a few who accepted these things when freely offered. On the other hand, if there are men who want to go their own way, it's probably best that they do, and more power to them. Women don't need those kinds of men, any more than those men need women.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Heh. To some extent, I agree. When Salome was posting here at TypoC a couple years ago, there were women's threads that contained some really toxic shit about men. I would read them and say, "Women really fucking do hate men. I didn't realize it was that bad." But then I would go run errands in town, and most women in town would smile and greet me nicely and maybe want to chat. And I would feel like there was some kind of cognitive dissonance at play.

    Still, you gotta play it safe these days. I treat women the same way I treat cops: I'm courteous and respectful, and I try to keep things light and short and move on my way. That is, I realize that both cops and women probably mean me no harm. And I realize that they both have their own burdens in life that are different from mine. But at the same time, I've had my troubles with both. And I'm cognizant that they both could do me a great deal of harm if they wanted, and they have done me harm in the past. So I just kind of want to complete my business with them as quickly as possible and move on.
    Salome attacked women as much as men, even ones who agreed with her. I don't think the issue there was really animosity toward men specifically. In any case, I suggest you treat women the same as you treat men, one human being to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    But like I say, this exchange between us has been a good example of why women are scary. I try to explain where I stand, and they just don't hear my story. In effect, they respond, "You're broken. You don't know what you're talking about. I know your life and your needs better than you."

    And I say, "Okay, whatever." And I back away slowly, and then I turn and run. As fast as I can.
    MDP didn't say you were broken, nor that you must eventually settle down with a woman, or have the same outcome she and/or her mother did. Specifically, she said:


    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    But different folks, different strokes.

    That's why I didn't want to let my mother off the hook. This happened to you? Shit sucks. Do some goddamn work. I have to. Why should you get to lick your wounds in a corner? (I said it nicer than that )

    So if you were my father, I would probably say something similar. Since you aren't - Do you.
    Start by noting the first line. The main injunction I see in her post is "do some goddam work", implied: do some introspection. Understand yourself, and how your life experiences have influenced you. Acknowledge and unpack your personal baggage. This work may show you that a new relationship is right for you. It may show you the exact opposite. It may confirm you on your current path, but with the caveat "never say never". Main thing, you will understand your motivations and do whatever you do with your eyes open, as a real choice.

    (I wonder if a tendency to overlay their own thoughts and apprehensions onto what someone says is a reason why women can be distrustful of men?)
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  7. #1597
    Rainy Day Woman Array MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    In a way, your responses to my posts are pretty much why I don't trust women. I've spent a few long posts trying to explain where I'm coming from on this MGTOW thing and why I can't be bothered dealing with women IRL. And you keep coming back with a response to the effect of "Well, that's because you're broken. You're damaged goods. You just don't know any better. Maybe someday you'll get better like my mother and I did, and you'll see that you were wrong."

    This is why women are scary. They just don't listen to men. They refuse to understand that No means No, when it comes from a man. I'm 60 years old. I know myself and my story and my life. I've been married twice for a total of 20 years, and I've been in many relationships in between. I'm not some kid wet behind the ears speaking of things I know nothing about. I'm trying to tell you my story, and you keep responding that I'm just broken and don't know what I'm talking about.

    Please understand, I'm not trying to be snarky. I know that you mean well, and at the end of your latest post you did at least acknowledge what I was saying to the point of saying, "Do you." I'm grateful that you yielded at least that much ground.

    But like I say, this exchange between us has been a good example of why women are scary. I try to explain where I stand, and they just don't hear my story. In effect, they respond, "You're broken. You don't know what you're talking about. I know your life and your needs better than you."

    And I say, "Okay, whatever." And I back away slowly, and then I turn and run. As fast as I can.

    See how that works?
    I'm not fighting for ground here. I'm not telling you you're damaged goods either. I never said what your choice is, isn't logical or understandable or valid. If you read back, you will see this. So don't put that on me, please.

    I'm just sharing my opinion about it. An opinion that differs from yours, as far as the long game is concerned, in what route you prefer to go and I'm trying to do that with as much respect to your choices as that is possible - as I don't like telling people how to live their life. But I also don't believe that in an honest conversation I have to 100% support everything someone else says. It can go back and forth. I'm not requiring you conceding anything but respectful consideration. Which, I think I've given and you have as well.

    I think I made that distinction between respecting the way you want to go and my own opinions on the matter. I hope that clarifies my statements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    [...]MDP didn't say you were broken, nor that you must eventually settle down with a woman, or have the same outcome she and/or her mother did. Specifically, she said:

    [...]

    Start by noting the first line. The main injunction I see in her post is "do some goddam work", implied: do some introspection. Understand yourself, and how your life experiences have influenced you. Acknowledge and unpack your personal baggage. This work may show you that a new relationship is right for you. It may show you the exact opposite. It may confirm you on your current path, but with the caveat "never say never". Main thing, you will understand your motivations and do whatever you do with your eyes open, as a real choice.

    (I wonder if a tendency to overlay their own thoughts and apprehensions onto what someone says is a reason why women can be distrustful of men?)
    I was trying to button up and finish the exchange with MDP2525, and MDP2525 wrote me two long posts saying that she disagreed with the tack I was taking and basically told me to chill out and do some introspection. You're just cherry-picking a couple lines, and you're pretty much advising the same thing. (Same with the rest of your post. It's just some odd nitpicking of a few passages from here and there.)

    So my response to you is the same as to her. Mind your own business. You don't know me or my life.

    I'll spell out the argument that I've been making one more time. And then I'll drop it.

    When MDP2525 first joined the conversation, she posted this opinion of MGTOW people:

    3rd wave feminism

    I said that she was 99% correct, but I was silent about the 1% part where she was wrong. That wrong portion was at the end where she suggested that MGTOW-ers just need a little therapy.

    At the time, I couldn't really get into how that was wrong without laying some groundwork first. (I mean, if modern marriage is chewing up all these guys who simply pick the wrong gal, are they the ones who need to get their shit straight? What about the problems with the institution of marriage itself?) So I dismissed that portion of her post for the time being and instead focused on the areas where we agree. But I also started discussing another narrative about how the present system isn't working. Such as:

    --Traditional ideas of love and marriage reinforce the idea of man as rescuer/white knight/enabler/beast of burden/meal ticket, and woman as victim/helpless/narcissist/nagging slave-driver/free rider. And *feminism* in particular embraces a theme of woman as "victim of the patriarchy" and exhorts men to be mute supporters of women's needs and to carry water for women in their victimhood role.

    --Third-wave feminism is so poorly defined that it's effectively meaningless. It means pretty much whatever an individual feminist wants it to mean, and it becomes a moving target, a shell game when men try to critique it. And when men complain about it, they are accused of "hate speech."

    --Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to talk about how vile and abusive men are but still insist that men marry them, father their kids, support them, and solve all their problems. MGTOW men, on the other hand, are saying that women are vicious and vindictive, and with porn available and housekeeping appliances available men no longer need women in their lives at all. Or at least men shouldn't marry women and get caught in the legal traps that marriage represents. Marriage is just a contract asking the government to referee the relationship, with the government taking the side of the woman whenever there's a dispute.

    --Feminist/SJW echo chambers become toxic and are no worse or better than what gets said at MGTOW. But only a few MGTOW forums exist, whereas the toxic feminist/SJW narrative permeates the culture.

    --And so on.

    In response, MDP2525 kind of schmoozed the issues and said that I have some legitimate points. But when pressed on any of it, she keeps going back to the same refrain. She tells me that I just need to get some therapy and introspect a bit, and the problem will go away. As though I'm a teenager going through some hormonal phase: "Things will get better."

    But actually, I'm good. I separated from my 2nd wife six years ago. I've lost 75 pounds since then, and I'm in the best shape that I've been in since I was a kid in the Marines. I love life, and I feel good. Part of the way I maintain a good attitude is because I keep at arm's length anyone who tries to tell me I'm broken and need therapy. Because they're full of shit.

    Many other men can make marriage work for them. I'm not saying that that marriage is 100% awful for everyone. But I gave it a fair try over 2 decades and it didn't work for me. Same with many of the other folks at MGTOW. So if someone tries to tell me that I'm broken and just need to climb back into that meatgrinder again to be healthy, then they don't know me.

    So now, when MDP2525 suggests that I'm broken and just need some therapy, I'm just kind of getting in her face in return about it. I'm trying to tell *her* what the solution is. For the third time, here's the solution. As I said to her:

    [...] you kind of asked where women and men go from here. So I answered: Nowhere. We're already there: Mutual bitching and bashing on social media, and men walking out on marriage. We've arrived at the final destination. This is home sweet home.
    As for me, I'm good. I go my own way, and I don't bother anyone. If a woman gets toxic or starts judging me or tries to tell me how to live my life, I just keep her at arm's length or avoid her company altogether. And that solves my problems. No therapy needed. I'm a happy camper.

    You all don't have to like my point of view. But if you dismiss my point of view and patronize me with a "you just need therapy" refrain, then we're through with this exchange. If you're just not interested in hearing my opinion ("Go get therapy, son!"), then it gets back to this again:

    [...] you kind of asked where women and men go from here. So I answered: Nowhere. We're already there: Mutual bitching and bashing on social media, and men walking out on marriage. We've arrived at the final destination. This is home sweet home.
    And with that, I'm done. At this point, I'm pretty much at the "don't give a fuck" stage. I feel like I'm not getting heard. That's fine, but there's no reason for me to engage further either.
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    Senior Member Array YUI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I'm not fighting for ground here. I'm not telling you you're damaged goods either. I never said what your choice is, isn't logical or understandable or valid. If you read back, you will see this. So don't put that on me, please.

    I'm just sharing my opinion about it. An opinion that differs from yours, as far as the long game is concerned, in what route you prefer to go and I'm trying to do that with as much respect to your choices as that is possible - as I don't like telling people how to live their life. But I also don't believe that in an honest conversation I have to 100% support everything someone else says. It can go back and forth. I'm not requiring you conceding anything but respectful consideration. Which, I think I've given and you have as well.

    I think I made that distinction between respecting the way you want to go and my own opinions on the matter. I hope that clarifies my statements.
    Whatever. We're done with this exchange.

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    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I was trying to button up and finish the exchange with MDP2525, and MDP2525 wrote me two long posts saying that she disagreed with the tack I was taking and basically told me to chill out and do some introspection. You're just cherry-picking a couple lines, and you're pretty much advising the same thing. (Same with the rest of your post. It's just some odd nitpicking of a few passages from here and there.)

    So my response to you is the same as to her. Mind your own business. You don't know me or my life.

    I'll spell out the argument that I've been making one more time. And then I'll drop it.
    I'm not cherry picking, any more than personal introspection is therapy. Nor are most of my comments adressed to the MGTOW crowd. They are addressed to you. When you make posts on a public forum like this, you make the content the business of all readers. If that is not to your liking, then don't post that content.

    Again, you are seeing what you want to see, not what someone else has in fact said.
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