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  1. #1561

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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    That's all I owe them: To be a decent human being toward them.
    I think ultimately that is all anyone owes one another and if everyone followed this basic tenet, society would be the better for it.
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  2. #1562

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I find in men's groups there is a "sight-blindness". A difficulty in distinguishing cause/effect. And propensity for some to scapegoat women the same way some feminists do men.
    I think this is true, for the most part. I think many confuse the game with the player. i.e. 'don't hate the playa', hate the game.' It's often easy for people to see the effects of a bad system or arrangement in society (in this case, a gynocentric society that failed to bring men out of traditionalist, patriarchal mindsets when it was doing the same for women, therefore causing a gender divide that has widened each year) as all the result of a particular group or demographic, because that gives a face to the problem (for MRAs and some MGTOW, that face is either feminism or individual women's bad behavior), and giving it a face feels good for a lot of people, because it's sometimes easier to target a face (I think this explains Trump's success in effectively demonizing Immigrants in his base rather than encouraging them to find and attack the roots of the problem). It can also feel VERY cathartic to assign a particular face to a problem and then attack it accordingly. I've been guilty of this, as have a lot of people on both sides of the gender wars--MRAs can feel good because they can channel all their anger at women; radfems can feel good because they can channel that anger toward men or the patriarchy; it feels good to be angry, even though it eats away at our souls and turns us into shells or caricatures of our best selves, leaving only our worst features exposed. No more. I think that whenever humans find themselves falling into the 'hate the playa' patterns of thinking rather than looking for underlying causes of problems, it would behoove them to stop, take a breath, and zoom the fuck out to get more perspective. I'm going to make a more concerted effort to follow my own advice from now on.

    Unless others wish to initiate a discussion with me on these topics, I've decided it's in the best interests of my own mental health that I no longer dwell on this topic.

    Adieu.
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  3. #1563
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    A woman has been arrested in Iran today because she was using a bicycle...


    Iran was planning to build "special bikes" in purpose to hide their body beauties.

    Journalists say : "those bikes will be made of a cabin to hide half of their bodies !"

    "This invention will allow women to still have rights to compete sports", reported Elaheh Sofali, one of the ladies in charge with research project.

    Faezeh Hachémi, ex president Akbar Hachémi Rafsandjani's daughter, was responsible of feminine olympic sports, had encouraged in the years 90's cycling for women,

    but some religious didn't miss to quickly disagree their decision.


    Yes, women from Iran can ride a bike too
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

  4. #1564
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    @Anaximander

    I agree with your message. I disagree that gynocentrism has been the predominant arrangement in society. This is just not backed up by history or culturally, in many countries. (Not that I want to get into reasonings here, as we will invariably not agree).

    I do see gynocentrism in some aspects of 3rd wave. But I'm not really sure what 3rd wave is fighting for in the 1st world. Seems about standing ground rather than making advances.

    Rhetorical. I don't really care other than to phrase the question for personal thought to any who are reading.

    Anyway, if you think the chicken came before the egg, and I the egg before the chicken...it doesn't change anything but where one assigns the blame, in a negative sense.

    Or, conversely, in the positive, how you go about solving a specific problem.

    I think this is why I can agree with your overall sentiments.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance
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  5. #1565

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    @MDP2525 It's not really important here whether or not we agree on whether gynocentrism existed in pre-women's lib culture (I'll spend a lot of time gathering some sources to support the claim to which I don't expect we'll see eye to eye anyway, so what's the point), but would you agree or disagree that when we began to liberate women from traditional roles, we failed to really do the same for men and caused a lot of antagonism and misunderstanding between the sexes? Considering that neither sex exists in a bubble isolated from the opposite sex, I think it's only logical that a huge paradigm shift for one and not the other will cause rifts and resentment on either side, but that's just my opinion and I am interested in reading yours.
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  6. #1566
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    @MDP2525 (...) but would you agree or disagree that when we began to liberate women from traditional roles, we failed to really do the same for men and caused a lot of antagonism and misunderstanding between the sexes? Considering that neither sex exists in a bubble isolated from the opposite sex, I think it's only logical that a huge paradigm shift for one and not the other will cause rifts and resentment on either side, but that's just my opinion.
    Oh yeah. I agree. These things are intertwined!
    ----

    Side note: I would clarify my own views here that I think before women liberated themselves, with help of like-minded men, men had power to liberate themselves, too.

    Why they didn't take it or why their fellow men didn't seem receptive to them until women did? And took a lot of hell for it... Idk...

    We are getting into chicken/egg territory again and a case can be made either way. You may say "gynocentrism" see? I see that point but think it's too highly revisionist (for me) to place it as the dominant force.

    Not saying it didn't/doesn't exist, I just think it was borne of defense rather than raw strength or real power and I have looked into it enough to be okay with my presumptions. As, I am sure, you are with yours.

    But if you want to send me anything, feel free. It doesn't bother me to read.

    Side note over.
    ----

    It's why I understand the reasonings behind men's groups or advocacy. Most especially on issues such as DV, and sexual abuse.

    I just don't think feminists (in a broad sense) should be expected to be the most vocal on males behalf, even if they are on the same issues concerning women. I mean, it's not really their bag, you know?

    I don't see the point of either to try to win gold in the oppression olympics as it's ego driven, not solution driven. Like I said earlier, this isn't a game.

    When someone is affected by this stuff, gender boundaries fall and we can all empathize as humans.

    That being said, I think men should speak for themselves and I support some of their voices, provided it doesn't come with a whole lot of hate speech vitriol.

    Same way, men's groups don't really need to define or support feminism. It's not their responsibility.

    I support some feminists initiatives, also, provided it doesn't come with a whole lot of hate speech vitriol.

    The problem lies is seeing the two proponents, at least on the surface, as inherently pitted against each other.

    But it's awfully hard to police reactivity - especially when emotions run high. So, most of what I'm saying is 'perfect world' scenario, sadly.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  7. #1567

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    So I have one question that's been burning in my head for a while, and I'm not asking it to be contentious but to get some real perspectives.

    I have noticed that some feminists seem to recoil or become annoyed when certain people refer to themselves as humanists or egalitarians and either reject or avoid the feminist label. Any ideas why? Based on the definitions of each, they would seem to be synonymous or at least overlap.

    Any explanations I've found online have been non-answers, some making the claim that people who identify as egalitarians don't really "do anything" to fight inequality and prejudice or that they're just using it as a way to hide their racism or sexism and therefore aren't true egalitarians or humanists. Perhaps that is true for some people, but if so, does that negate the term for those who actually embody and live those principles?

  8. #1568
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    [...] It's why I understand the reasonings behind men's groups or advocacy. Most especially on issues such as DV, and sexual abuse.

    I just don't think feminists (in a broad sense) should be expected to be the most vocal on males behalf, even if they are on the same issues concerning women. I mean, it's not really their bag, you know?

    I don't see the point of either to try to win gold in the oppression olympics as it's ego driven, not solution driven. Like I said earlier, this isn't a game.

    When someone is affected by this stuff, gender boundaries fall and we can all empathize as humans.

    That being said, I think men should speak for themselves and I support some of their voices, provided it doesn't come with a whole lot of hate speech vitriol.

    Same way, men's groups don't really need to define or support feminism. It's not their responsibility.

    I support some feminists initiatives, also, provided it doesn't come with a whole lot of hate speech vitriol.

    The problem lies is seeing the two proponents, at least on the surface, as inherently pitted against each other.

    But it's awfully hard to police reactivity - especially when emotions run high. So, most of what I'm saying is 'perfect world' scenario, sadly.
    MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) is a social media creation. It's just a couple internet forums here and there where men can go and bitch about women. As such, MGTOW is just the flip side of feminist and SJW social media, where women go to bitch about men and bash them.

    Traditionally men don't like to get together and do that sort of whiny woman-bashing that goes on at MGTOW. A lot of men (myself included) have trouble getting onboard with the atmosphere at MGTOW forums. All the whining and complaining about women seems unmanly. Also, it seems to be the opposite of "going your own way." If anything, the complainers at MGTOW seem overly fixated on women.

    But the internet is chockfull of feminist and SJW forums, hashtag campaigns, twitter campaigns, etc. where women trash men. Women feel completely free to put men down for even the most minor flaws. So after years of listening to women's rants about men, it's easy for men to say, "Fuck it. I know where these guys at MGTOW are coming from. I really don't want to be one of them. But I do understand them."

    And when feminists call MGTOW "hate speech," men respond, "Fine. Whatever. But if complaining about women is hate speech, then much of 3rd-wave feminism (as if manifests itself on social media) seems to consist of 'hate speech' directed against men. At least the male-bashing parts of it."

    So what's the solution?

    Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to talk about how vile and abusive men are but still insist that men marry them, father their kids, support them, and solve all their problems. MGTOW men, on the other hand, are saying that women are vicious and vindictive, and with porn available and housekeeping appliances available men no longer need women in their lives at all. Or at least men shouldn't marry women and get caught in the legal traps that marriage represents. Marriage is just a contract asking the government to referee the relationship, with the government taking the side of the woman whenever there's a dispute.

    That's where we stand, and that *is* the solution. That is: Both sides be honest, say how you see it, and act accordingly. Women can nag and bitch about what losers men are, and men can tune them out and walk away (and go bitch about women on their own forums, if they want). We're all adults, and we're all free. Do exactly what the fuck you want.

    **************
    A quick footnote: Remember that I said at the start: MGTOW is a social media creation, and it's the flip side of feminist and SJW social media. In other words, my posts talks specifically about social media manifestations of the gender wars.

    If you want to talk about dueling political platforms and judicial/legislative work of organized groups such as the National Organization for Women (NOW) and the Men's Rights Activist groups (MRAs), that would be a separate discussion. And I've pointed out that some of the smaller MRAs have tried reaching out to women's groups and working with them.

    But those kinds of contacts between organized groups happen behind the scenes, and most men and women probably aren't even aware of them. At the broad social level, conflicts get played out in social media. So that's what my post concerns: The social media manifestations of the gender wars, as represented by MGTOW and feminist and SJW social media.
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  9. #1569
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    MGTOW is a social media creation. It's just a couple internet forums here and there where men can go and bitch about women. As such, MGTOW is just the flip side of feminist and SJW social media, where women go to bitch about men and bash them.

    Traditionally men don't like to get together and do that sort of whiny woman-bashing that goes on at MGTOW. A lot of men (myself included) have trouble getting onboard with the atmosphere at MGTOW forums. All the whining and complaining about women seems unmanly. Also, it seems to be the opposite of "going your own way." If anything, the complainers at MGTOW seem overly fixated on women.

    But the internet is chockful of feminist and SJW forums, hashtag campaigns, twitter campaigns, etc. where women trash men. Women feel completely free to put men down for even the most minor flaws. So after years of listening to women's rants about men, it's easy for men to say, "Fuck it. I know where these guys at MGTOW are coming from. I really don't want to be one of them. But I do understand them."

    And when feminists call MGTOW "hate speech," men respond, "Fine. Whatever. But if complaining about women is hate speech, then practically all of 3rd-wave feminism (as if manifests itself on social media) seems to consist of 'hate speech' directed against men."

    So what's the solution?

    Women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to talk about how vile and abusive men are but still insist that men marry them, support them, and solve all their problems. MGTOW men, on the other hand, are saying that women are vicious and vindictive, and with porn available and housekeeping appliances available men no longer need women in their lives at all. Or at least men shouldn't marry women and get caught in the legal traps that marriage represents. Marriage is just a contract asking the government to referee the relationship, with the government taking the side of the woman whenever there's a dispute.

    That's where we stand, and that *is* the solution. That is: Both sides be honest, say how they see it, and act accordingly. Women can bitch, and men can walk. We're all adults, and we're all free. Do exactly what the fuck you want.

    **************
    A quick footnote: Remember that I said at the start: MGTOW is a social media creation, and it's the flip side of feminist and SJW social media. In other words, my posts talks specifically about social media manifestations of the gender wars.

    If you want to talk about dueling political platforms and judicial/legislative work of organized groups such as NOW or MRAs, that would be a separate discussion. And I've pointed out that some of the smaller MRAs have tried reaching out to women's groups and working with them.

    But those kinds of contacts between organized groups happen behind the scenes, and most men and women probably aren't even aware of them. At the social level, conflicts get played out in social media. So that's what my post concerns.
    I wasn't strictly speaking of MGTOW in that post but encompassing men's groups in some general conglomerate. Or at least, the vocally hateful in all of them. I think I included feminists in there as well.

    To name specifics at this point would force me down some rabbit hole I don't prefer going in.

    I don't have Twitter or Instagram for specific reasons.

    I prefer a friend or a nice stranger posted up next to me at a bar, who I can build a rapport with, look at their face, sharing personal stories, hearing experiences. I don't want to be relegated to my views fitting in 140 characters or be surrounded by an echo chamber of my own opinions.

    I use this forum because at least I have a sense of personality of who I'm talking to. It's not starting from scratch every time and after a while, I've gotten a sense of who I can discuss certain sensitive topics with reasonably, who is full of shit, who I want to avoid and I can build off that. It's not as exhausting, to me. Much more rewarding. It's why I come back. Not as great as in person but not as toxic as most social media.

    That is my preference. To each their own.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  10. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I wasn't strictly speaking of MGTOW in that post but encompassing men's groups in some general conglomerate. Or at least, the vocally hateful in all of them. I think I included feminists in there as well.

    To name specifics at this point would force me down some rabbit hole I don't prefer going in.

    I don't have Twitter or Instagram for specific reasons.

    I prefer a friend or a nice stranger posted up next to me at a bar, who I can build a rapport with, look at their face, sharing personal stories, hearing experiences. I don't want to be relegated to my views fitting in 140 characters or be surrounded by an echo chamber of my own opinions.

    I use this forum because at least I have a sense of personality of who I'm talking to. It's not starting from scratch every time and after a while, I've gotten a sense of who I can discuss certain sensitive topics with reasonably, who is full of shit, who I want to avoid and I can build off that. It's not as exhausting, to me. Much more rewarding. It's why I come back. Not as great as in person but not as toxic as most social media.

    That is my preference. To each their own.
    I get what you're saying, and I agree with what you've said in your latest post. Two people who are simply communicating one-on-one end up creating their own little world. The rules become whatever they decide. They can choose to talk about whatever they want, they can choose to have sex or not, marry or not, have kids or not, argue or not, etc. The world they create is up to them.

    But your previous post was about men's groups, at least in part, and made reference to things like "hate speech vitriol" and so on. So I just wanted to clarify. MGTOW is social media, and it follows the rules for social media. Basically, it's a mirror image of feminist and SJW social media. As such, any criticism you might level at MGTOW will probably apply to some degree to feminist and SJW social media as well.

    Meantime, if you want to talk about MRAs and NOW and similar organized entities, that's a separate topic. They're different from social media.

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