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  1. #1551
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    No problem. Like I said, you're on the mark. So I have no problem bantering with you about it. I don't do back-channel stuff (PMs and VMs), but I'll discuss in the open forums.
    Ok. I didn't want to derail an already somewhat derailed thread. So long as the mods see the transparancy, I hope that is fine by them and we'll continue another day.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  2. #1552
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    As a critic of feminism, I'll acknowledge that I increasingly disrupt feminism threads.

    As I see it:

    Old-guard feminism (OG feminism) has been around for a while now. It has won significant victories (particularly in the courts and legal system), but in the process abuses have crept in. It's kind of like the unions in the working world: Once upon a time unions were needed, but over time they've kind of gotten corrupt and become about accumulating entitlements and power.

    Also, people get tired of feminism constantly demonizing men as the source of all evil in the world. For decades, most men have acknowledged the shortcomings of the androcentric model and made room for women who want more and are willing to work for it. So the male-bashing gets old and seems unwarranted.

    So OG feminism has gotten long in the tooth and abuses have arisen in the movement. Opposition to the worst abuses of OG feminism is arising among both men and women.



    Again, this is all my personal impression. Others may disagree with how I've characterized the situation and the various groups.
    So, this is condensed from your post. I have some questions here. Mainly about how you perceive some things. The two main bolded points are worth delving into.

    First, what is OG feminism (to you)?

    Also, to piggyback onto that to get to the bigger question I'm curious about, is this: Do you think at one point the OG feminism was needed and has since become obsolete due to OG feminism getting what they were asking for and now that the balance has been made it is beating a dead horse? (feel free to add or substitute your own reasoning here, I'm just spit-balling) - OR - it was never needed? If you think it was never needed, can you explain your reasoning?

    Do you think the "abuses that have crept in" are because of over-reach of feminism - OR - because women have equal representation in court systems in a way they hadn't before and the "abuses" are a product of women being people, and therefore as people, are subject to being assholes who exploit systems. Or a bit of both?

    If it is the latter, what role do feminists have to deter this from happening? Is it their role?

    Also, I realize your opinion may not fit into any of the either/or scenarios but I use them as jumping off points, at least.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  3. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    So, this is condensed from your post. I have some questions here. Mainly about how you perceive some things. The two main bolded points are worth delving into.

    First, what is OG feminism (to you)? [...]
    Basically, it's anything after second-wave feminism. Everyone pretty much acknowledges the need for first-wave feminism (the right to vote and all that) and second-wave feminism (women's liberation, equal rights, the sexual revolution).

    But things get fuzzy after that. Everyone has a different idea of what third-wave feminism comprises. There's the "canon" definition (which is so vague that it's effectively meaningless), then there's what SJWs are fighting for (which is pretty much everything under the sun). Then there's political correctness, which feminists insist isn't intrinsically part of feminism but seems to go hand-in-hand with it. Furthermore, some women claim to have moved on from 3rd-wave feminism and claim to be fighting for another wave altogether. And so on. As a result, men can't criticize "feminism" because then it sounds like they want to take away the vote from women and return to the stone age. But men also can't criticize "3rd-wave feminism" because feminists will respond, "Well, that's not what I'm fighting for, anyway" or "3rd-wave feminism isn't defined that way, anyway."

    So it becomes a moving target. Feminists think they can make themselves immune to criticism by simply saying, "Well whatever you're criticizing isn't part of *my* feminism anyway." It's a con game, where men are invited to guess which thimble contains the marble, but they always guess wrong.

    So I'm being deliberately vague. I'm calling it "old-guard feminism." And by that I mean: "Whatever-the-hell feminist scourge we've been suffering under for the last 25 years, however you choose to define it."

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    [...]Also, to piggyback onto that to get to the bigger question I'm curious about, is this: Do you think at one point the OG feminism was needed and has since become obsolete due to OG feminism getting what they were asking for and now that the balance has been made it is beating a dead horse? (feel free to add or substitute your own reasoning here, I'm just spit-balling) - OR - it was never needed? If you think it was never needed, can you explain your reasoning?

    Do you think the "abuses that have crept in" are because of over-reach of feminism - OR - because women have equal representation in court systems in a way they hadn't before and the "abuses" are a product of women being people, and therefore as people, are subject to being assholes who exploit systems. Or a bit of both? [...]
    Same answer as above. If I try to answer any of that clearly, feminists and SJWs will simply respond: "Well, *I* don't make *that* particular claim, so *I* don't recognize *that* criticism anyway."

    Meantime, various feminists and SJWs are making dozens of various and conflicting claims and accusations about men (everything from "men have a duty to stop violence against women" to "men have to stop being rapey" to "men need to shut up and listen to women's needs"), and men are supposed to take all that shit seriously.

    On any given day, there's a report in the news that some wrong-side-of-the-tracks gal got beat up by her wrong-side-of-the-tracks boyfriend a thousand miles away, and feminists and SJWs immediately respond with a cascade of demands and accusations made against men as part of some dimwit hashtag campaign. And I'm supposed to take that shit seriously? Ri-i-i-ight. If there was a crime, tell it to the cops and let them handle it. If you want to study it, put some genuine academics on the case and hear what they have to say first. But don't turn it into an instant mass condemnation of males and masculinity. Hashtag campaigns and the like are little more than demagoguery and lynch mob mentality.

    If it is the latter, what role do feminists have to deter this from happening? Is it their role?

    Also, I realize your opinion may not fit into any of the either/or scenarios but I use them as jumping off points, at least
    I basically take the MGTOW position. Remember?

    I've walked away from it all. Modern feminism is a cesspool, and I don't want any part of it. I don't put any demands on feminists to clean it up or tame it, and I don't have any solutions in mind for it. I've simply ceased to give a shit.

    So here's what I say to you: I'm happy to explain to you about MGTOW, and I'll accept the criticisms you make of MGTOW. There's a lot of woman-hate at MGTOW, etc.; I don't deny it. But by the same token, I don't take any responsibility for the problems of feminism. Don't put any demands on me to define it, help clean it up, or come up with suggestions for improvement. Because then you're just another woman saddling me with more work and responsibilities. Fuck that noise, and fuck you.

    I treat women decently IRL. That's all I owe them: To be a decent human being toward them. I'm courteous and respectful; I don't make life any tougher on them than it already is. But I don't owe them a solution to all their problems.

    As for on-line: When I'm bored, I sometimes post items that will point up some of the petty hypocrisies in whatever argument feminists might be making at the moment, especially when they're putting down men. But again, I don't claim to have any solutions. I bitch a bit, then I walk away from it. Which is pretty much all that a lot of feminists and SJWs contribute to the situation. In that regard, I'm no better or worse than a lot of feminists and SJWs.
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  4. #1554
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Basically, it's anything after second-wave feminism. Everyone pretty much acknowledges the need for first-wave feminism (the right to vote and all that) and second-wave feminism (women's liberation, equal rights, the sexual revolution).

    But things get fuzzy after that. Everyone has a different idea of what third-wave feminism comprises. There's the "canon" definition (which is actually quite limited in scope), then there's what SJWs are fighting for (which is pretty much everything under the sun). Then there's political correctness, which feminists insist isn't intrinsically part of feminism but seems to go hand-in-hand with it. Furthermore, some women claim to have moved on from 3rd-wave feminism and claim to be fighting for another wave altogether. And so on. As a result, men can't criticize "feminism" because then it sounds like they want to take away the vote from women and return to the stone age. But men also can't criticize "3rd-wave feminism" because feminists will respond, "Well, that's not what I'm fighting for, anyway" or "3rd-wave feminism isn't defined that way, anyway."

    So it becomes a moving target. Feminists think they can make themselves immune to criticism by simply saying, "Well whatever your criticizing isn't part of *my* feminism anyway."

    So I'm being deliberately vague. I'm calling it "old-guard feminism." And by that I mean: "Whatever-the-hell feminist scourge we've been suffering under for the last 25 years, however you choose to define it."



    Same answer as above. If I try to answer any of that clearly, feminists and SJWs will simply respond: "Well, *I* don't make *that* particular claim, so *I* don't recognize *that* criticism anyway."

    Meantime, various feminists and SJWs are making dozens of various and conflicting claims and accusations about men (everything from "men have a duty to stop violence against women" to "men have to stop being rapey" to "men need to shut up and listen to women's needs"), and men are supposed to take all that shit seriously. Some wrong-side-of-the-tracks gal gets beat up by her wrong-side-of-the-tracks boyfriend a thousand miles away, and there's a cascade of demands and accusations made against men by SJWs and feminists as part of some dimwit hashtag campaign. And I'm supposed to take that shit seriously? Ri-i-i-ight.



    I basically take the MGTOW position. Remember?

    I've walked away from it all. Modern feminism is a cesspool, and I don't want any part of it. I don't put any demands on feminists to clean it up or tame it, and I don't have any solutions in mind for it. I've simply ceased to give a shit.

    So here's what I say to you: I'm happy to explain to you about MGTOW, and I'll accept the criticisms you make of MGTOW. There's a lot of woman-hate at MGTOW, etc.; I don't deny it. But by the same token, I don't take any responsibility for the problems of feminism. Don't put any demands on me to define it, help clean it up, or come up with suggestions for improvement. Because then you're just another woman saddling me with more work and responsibilities. Fuck that noise, and fuck you.

    I treat women decently IRL. That's all I owe them: To be a decent human being toward them. I'm courteous and respectful; I don't make life any tougher on them than it already is. But I don't owe them a solution to all their problems.

    As for on-line: When I'm bored, I sometimes post items that will point up some of the petty hypocrisies in whatever argument feminists might be making at the moment, especially when they're putting down men. But again, I don't claim to have any solutions. I bitch a bit, then I walk away from it. Which is pretty much all that a lot of feminists and SJWs contribute to the situation. In that regard, I'm no better or worse than a lot of feminists and SJWs.
    I strongly agree with you on many aspects you mentioned. At least, when discussing broad strokes.

    Yet, I am sort of all about cause/effect. In terms of finding out how all these various factions came about. How the sentiments evolved into the groupings. I realize you don't give a shit. I'm not emotionally invested in a detailed discussion.

    However, I find it interesting on a broad level. The same way I find some feminists extreme or lacking ability to differentiate the line between personal responsibility and injustice.

    I find in men's groups there is a "sight-blindness". A difficulty in distinguishing cause/effect. And propensity for some to scapegoat women the same way some feminists do men.

    Women socially were forced to play the demure hand because of their lack of rights. The delicate flower. In this respect, to get equal rights would do away with the women that invoked special treatment and privilege and buying into that. (IMO, buying into an illusion). So you have some that want their cake and eat it too.

    You also have men confused between indentifying the ones who express the sentiments without accountability and those that follow through in action.

    Who, the latter, may not be catering to men the same way men have been used to. Uh. The ones who are "tired of that shit." Ah. Now that sounds awefully familar!

    There isn't much difference in some aspects of why feminism became what it was and MGTOW, I see so many similarities that have a flipped side BUT causation is different....mightily so. Feelings are similar. It's just a shame that the bitterness divides them all.

    ---

    I know I mentioned my mother, at one point hating men because of dealing with him in court and prior to that having her bones broken and her kids beaten because she bought into the traditional roles of the man being the head of the household, her submissiveness seen in her own mother, and it cost her, dearly.

    I saw generationally how that inequity and how having an unbalanced partnership destroys families and lives. For myself, I saw that I would never hand over my self-sufficiency for anything.

    As such, a man is going to deal with a non-simpering woman. I'm not going to ask for money. I'm also not going to cater to a man they way a woman who *needs* a man does. Your wallet has no value to me. Therefore, I'm not going to say it's okay that you don't please me sexually because well, "He does so much..." I don't need to accept that because they aren't dependant on each other.

    So I can relate to the "fuck it" sentiment you express. When you live through shit, it's not a game.

    ---

    Anyway, my mother, after 20 years, at 63, began dating someone. Fell in love. She will never marry though. Can't blame her or anyone else who goes through the hell of divorce with a psychotic but the bitteness does fade, fwiw and I was glad to see her happy.
    ---

    The circle has one side but they are all starting at different points of reference.

    If more of us saw that, it would be such a greater step toward harmony. But that will never happen. Because the internet exists. Best we can do is treat each other well, and tell the ones who don't to fuck off.

    Thanks for your time. Good luck with everything, btw.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  5. #1555
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Whoa, much fucks have been given of late. I guess add my name to the list since I actually read a good part of the recent posts and am posting now. I initially considered adding to the discussion and engaging it actively, but guess what? This topic... Yup, you guessed it, I'm out of fucks to give it seems

    P.S. @YUI If you ever decide to try out our ventrilo server I'd love to pick your brain, share a few thoughts/stories etc.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #1556
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    I'm familiar with Paul Elam and I am familiar with his family history. However, I don't need to know his family history to know he is a sad, pathetic little excuse of a man.
    Okay. How do you feel about those web communities in general, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Men, by virtue of their gender and the privileges that come with being born into it, cannot be victims of oppression. It simply doesn't work that way.
    I'm confused at your meaning here. Are you saying this is or isn't the case?



    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    We had active Klan members in the patriarchal cesspool of a southern town in which I grew up. You don't want to get to know any of those people. trust me.
    That's no surprise. So as we see, you feel that you know what they are like, and you conclude that what they are like isn't good. The knowledge and familiarity does not soften your opinion. Having antipathy toward something is not proof of ignorance about, in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Which ones were we talking about here? The MRAs or the MGTOW? Klan guys?
    I think both the MRAs and the MGTOWs. Not Klansmen, who don't actually matter here outside of the analogy.




    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    evolutionary psychology is just another tool for the patriarchy and is used to justify and reinforce prejudices stemming from perceived differences in people who are all members of the same species. I googled it and got sucked into reading a bunch of scientific studies that were thinly-veiled attacks on non-white races and women.
    This seems like you are putting on some kind of act, pretending to be the opposition. If you're not, I am very confused about your position on this.

    I can say that I am genuinely fairly critical of what's become of evolutionary psychology, and even more so of those who love to casually reference it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Whoa, much fucks have been given of late. I guess add my name to the list since I actually read a good part of the recent posts and am posting now. I initially considered adding to the discussion and engaging it actively, but guess what? This topic... Yup, you guessed it, I'm out of fucks to give it seems

    P.S. @YUI If you ever decide to try out our ventrilo server I'd love to pick your brain, share a few thoughts/stories etc.
    @SpankyMcFly,

    I don't do back-channel stuff. That includes PMs, friendship requests, and Vent. When I post to message boards, I personally prefer that things be on the record in the open forums. Less confusing that way.

    Nothing against you, of course. I gave up back-channel stuff a few years ago when Salome and others were going on about sexual predators and "pervy old men" hitting on young girls, and all that. It was precisely the back-channel stuff where perceived abuses were happening. So I shut down any back-channel connections back then, and since then I stay on the record in the open forums with everyone as a matter of principle.

    I'm male and well above the average age here, and there have been a couple instances in the past where my posts were misinterpreted and I was accused of sexist interpretations I never intended. People my own age understand where I'm coming from in my posts. But young folks sometimes look for a meaning in my posts that never occurred to me when I was writing the post. Staying on the record helps in sorting things out when there are misunderstandings.

    
Gotta play it safe these days. Of course, that rule only applies to me personally. Others are free to do as they please.

    (I figured I would explain that background, because it sort of fits in with the theme here. Salome and the others were self-proclaimed champions of third-wave feminism and did a lot of open male-bashing on TypoC for about 2 years in its name.)

    Anyway, if you want to investigate MGTOW further, then hit up some of the available MGTOW forums and message boards. I'm through talking about MGTOW for now. Sounds like MDP2525 has gotten her fill of the subject, and so have I. I wouldn't have said as much as I did, but people asked questions about it.

    Personally, I'm not looking to make converts to MGTOW. I'm just being a curmudgeon and popping a few of the balloons of the feminists. (Same old thing I've been doing for a while now.)

  8. #1558
    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Oh no not this thread again.
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


    Visit my Johari: http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  9. #1559
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    @SpankyMcFly,

    I don't do back-channel stuff. That includes PMs, friendship requests, and Vent. When I post to message boards, I personally prefer that things be on the record in the open forums. Less confusing that way.

    Nothing against you, of course. I gave up back-channel stuff a few years ago when Salome and others were going on about sexual predators and "pervy old men" hitting on young girls, and all that. It was precisely the back-channel stuff where perceived abuses were happening. So I shut down any back-channel connections back then, and since then I stay on the record in the open forums with everyone as a matter of principle.

    I'm male and well above the average age here, and there have been a couple instances in the past where my posts were misinterpreted and I was accused of sexist interpretations I never intended. People my own age understand where I'm coming from in my posts. But young folks sometimes look for a meaning in my posts that never occurred to me when I was writing the post. Staying on the record helps in sorting things out when there are misunderstandings.

    
Gotta play it safe these days. Of course, that rule only applies to me personally. Others are free to do as they please.

    (I figured I would explain that background, because it sort of fits in with the theme here. Salome and the others were self-proclaimed champions of third-wave feminism and did a lot of open male-bashing on TypoC for about 2 years in its name.)

    Anyway, if you want to investigate MGTOW further, then hit up some of the available MGTOW forums and message boards. I'm through talking about MGTOW for now. Sounds like MDP2525 has gotten her fill of the subject, and so have I. I wouldn't have said as much as I did, but people asked questions about it.

    Personally, I'm not looking to make converts to MGTOW. I'm just being a curmudgeon and popping a few of the balloons of the feminists. (Same old thing I've been doing for a while now.)
    Gotcha. I actually came to typec for the 'back channel' stuff myself, namely ventrilo. I have my spurts of posting as well. I find real time voice to be a more rich and dare I say, authentic ;p interaction. Which is one reason why I suggested it. In addition to it being a more efficient exchange, timewise.

    I wanted to share information with you in regards to MGTOW. I think this thread is not the best place. I've been following it for about two years now myself.

    As a father to two daughters and 'skin' in the game, as it were, I started paying a lot more attention to gender politics. Been divorced once and I'm separated going on 8 years now. Can't say I've been through the wringer though. I think the message of MGTOW is worth spreading though. It's simple and readily observable as to why. Heck marriage has been in decline for decades. I'd show a graph but am at work atm.

    Be well YUI.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay. How do you feel about those web communities in general, though?
    Which ones specifically?

    You mentioned Return of Kings and AVFM so I'll start there.

    RoK are tradcons who have been blinded by the belief that a return to their 1955 Father Knows Best is somehow an improvement over current society (ever notice how traditionalist conservative people always think the ultimate fix to any of society's problems is to just regress 50 or so years? As if regressing to a point before certain problems were addressed openly will eliminate said problems? I'm sure trads in 1955 were convinced a return to 1905 was the answer. I guess poor labor conditions, a lack of any real rights for blacks, chinese, native americans, italians, irish, non-WASPs, and the threat of polio appealed to these people? There were probably tradcons in 1900 who thought a return to 1850 was the answer...and so on....) The world they imagine was some patriarchal paradise where men lived like kings, hence the title of their site. I think that is based on a very naive view of history that even exceeds some of the wildest feminist myths and distortions of the past. They fail to realize how generally shitty things were for men and women who didn't belong to the elite aristocracy. No thank you.

    AVFM.. I don't deny any misogyny there, especially in the comments sections of several pieces. At the same time I've found valuable, insightful articles from guest writers such as Erin Pizzey and Karen Straughan that feature none of the hate you mention and interesting perspectives that will usually not be found in any mainstream or feminist publications. I'm familiar with some of their most "hateful" pieces, and guess what? Many are satire pieces written as counterpoints to feminist articles from other sites--sometimes they involve something as simple as flipping the words "men" and "women" to reveal certain biases and to point out perceived hypocrisies in the original pieces. Sometimes the satire is more subtle, and to a casual observer missing the intended satire, it might appear as a straight-up hate piece. The overall tone of the site can be combative and incendiary, but it is my understanding that the "nice guys" like Warren Farrell were being mostly ignored by mainstream media, so the more aggressive tone was Elam's way of getting some publicity and therefore bringing more awareness to several issues. Overall, they've been moving more in a tradcon direction in the past couple of years (really since Janet Bloomfield became Paul's right hand and he sacked Diana Davison and John the Other), and that's disappointing, because the site originated as a very centrist egalitarian publication. I think at this point Paul just cares about revenue from his site, and he knows that there are a lot of sad, broken, disillusioned men who will gobble up that trad shit.

    I'd posted a video by a MGTOW the other day regarding why he thought the MRM will fail, and I think AVFM and RoK will only accelerate their failure. Basically, either of these sites have tried to position themselves as the anti-feminism resources rather than as the anti-gynocentrism resources. Feminism is just one cog but they would like to pretend it is the source of all of our current evils. Which part? the part that encouraged women to become independent and take responsibility for their own lives rather than lean on men as utilities to protect and support them? The part that fought for the ERA, which would've ensured women be just as responsible as men for building and maintaining our civilization, including making them eligible for the draft and ensuring equal pay?

    What other particular communities do you wish to hear my thoughts on?

    I'm confused at your meaning here. Are you saying this is or isn't the case?
    I was being sarcastic, but really, I don't think it is or ever has been so black and white that it only IS or ISN'T the case.





    That's no surprise. So as we see, you feel that you know what they are like, and you conclude that what they are like isn't good. The knowledge and familiarity does not soften your opinion. Having antipathy toward something is not proof of ignorance about, in and of itself.
    While I understand and agree with this point, I think you kind of missed the original point I was trying to make in the process of generating this response.

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