User Tag List

First 55105145153154155156157 Last

Results 1,541 to 1,550 of 1614

  1. #1541
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    INxx
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post

    Men, by virtue of their gender and the privileges that come with being born into it, cannot be victims of oppression. It simply doesn't work that way.
    Untrue, men can be, and are, oppressed by the patriarchy in a bunch of ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post

    evolutionary psychology is just another tool for the patriarchy and is used to justify and reinforce prejudices stemming from perceived differences in people who are all members of the same species. I googled it and got sucked into reading a bunch of scientific studies that were thinly-veiled attacks on non-white races and women.
    Evolutionary psychology is a (mostly) respectable sub-category of psychology proper that arrives at truly problematic when populist reactionaries on the interbutt deliberately (?) misunderstand it to support their sexist opinions.

    0/2 go back to feminist school!

  2. #1542
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    EII Fi
    Posts
    8,217

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Untrue, men can be, and are, oppressed by the patriarchy in a bunch of ways.
    Disagree. They are by nature an oppressive sex. Even the act of reproduction is a violent process that involves generally larger, more aggressive males ramrodding their way into women's very centers. I'm all for replacing sex with technology as a means of reproduction.

    Evolutionary psychology is a (mostly) respectable sub-category of psychology proper that arrives at truly problematic when populist reactionaries on the interbutt deliberately (?) misunderstand it to support their sexist opinions.
    It's a tool nonetheless that is often in the wrong hands and it doesn't always take into account current cultural biases and other factors that might also explain why certain people may appear to think differently. Computational theory has some good insights. Beyond that, I think a lot of the field borders on pseudo-science and is based more in speculation and guesswork.
    INFP 5w4, 9w8, 3w4

    Fi > Ti > Ne > Ni > Si > Te > Se > Fe

  3. #1543
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    5,256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Technically, I suppose I'm MGTOW fodder. I've been divorced twice and can't imagine getting married ever again. The second divorce was a bruising, hostile legal battle lasting two years. I probably paid 75k to 100k in legal costs alone (I had to pay lawyers on both sides, since my ex didn't have any independent income of her own). That doesn't even include the split of assets, the alimony, etc. I can't take another hit like that again, so I won't be getting married again. Hence: MGTOW fodder, at least technically.

    I hang around the MGTOW site. I'm an ex-Marine and I'm not horrified by the attitudes and language there. My biggest problem with MGTOW attitudes was that I just didn't want to identify with a group of wounded, raging males. I didn't used to see myself as one of them; I've moved on from whatever grudges I once had against my ex.

    But across time I have less and less to do with women. Women are pretty aggressive at my age (60), and frankly there are a lot of them mainly looking for a meal ticket. And I have to admit that I can see where a lot of these MGTOW guys are coming from.

    As for where MGTOW or MRAs should go or what they should do in the future, I don't really care. Like a lot of the MGTOW people in the forums there, I just want to touch base, socialize a bit sometimes, and then move on. I'm not into strategy or trying to channel the people and resources there. Couldn't give a fuck.
    I think you could give a fuck.

    It's why you're here, posting. If you didn't care a bit, you wouldn't be here.

    Your experience re-affirms what I was talking to anximander about in my last post. A sense of bitterness. Weariness.

    All that is very understandable. The MGTOW seems very close to adopting the slogan "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle"

    I guess, they bought into the same ideas that the man is the provider. The focus doesn't seem to be on women being in their "place" but rather what a man is or how that is defined and where women had defined roles, men did as well.

    They bought into the traditional - because they were just as entranced as women were back then. I just can't help feeling as if most are passive by nature. (I use the term passive in a neutral way here, as I don't think it's neg/pos in general terms).

    So pendulums swing and these men had their neck out and it got cut when advances women's groups made with DV, court systems, etc. Women had a way to fight back - and some chose to fight dirty. I mean, that's equality. Women can be assholes, too.

    Personally, I've seen this first hand. It gets nasty. This is where I see the natural buyer beware attitude. I think a lot of MGTOW's are frankly recovering from trauma.

    I also think a lot of these men simply do not know how to recognize manipuative women. I know that sounds bad, but I can see these women a mile away.

    I've warned some of my male friends against marriage to their SO. I've heard:

    "She doesn't want to work. But it's okay. She doesn't need to. I make enough for us." (No kids here, btw)

    Hmm. And that's okay with you? Because if you divorce, you're paying, you know. Can't cry after the fact. (*red flag*)

    Oh, everytime you want to have an important discussion about changing a comfortable dynamic she'll change the subject and give you a blowjob? Using sexuality to avoid discussion. *red flag*

    This isn't relegated to women, I see it in men too. Just different expression.

    (again, I can't speak for all - just how I see it.)

    But if this is the case MGTOW, is more of a support group. That's cool. I don't see why there is a hatred (if not a hatred, then a severe dislike) of feminism (broad term) though.

    They don't seem related at all. I have seen women be unethical in custody cases, fight dirty as hell. It's not illegal though and I've been the child of parents that went through an active 8 year custody battle. My dad happened to be the one abusing the court system to drain my mom's money.

    Anyway, but how the bitter weariness of that translates to a direct causal link to (broad term) feminism? Again. I don't see that.

    I think that pendulum swing bias is equalling out now. I think MGTOW, the most non-hateful of them would do well with some therapy in addition to whatever support they get through others who share similar sentiments.

    Just my opinion.
    ~Live and learn from fools and from sages~




    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance
    Likes Lethe liked this post

  4. #1544
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    EII Fi
    Posts
    8,217

    Default

    I've seen the MGTOW groups. I entered a few on facebook. Anytime anything resembling a meaningful or interesting discussion begins, it gets derailed with woman-hating remarks. At least half of new posts are focused on bashing some different woman for being a terrible example of a human being. It's a joke. It's bruised men blaming women as a whole for individual persons' shitty behavior, then virtual high fiving one another over who can make the wittiest shitpost about women.

    They just don't GET IT, and likely never will.

    Most of them are just veiled tradcons lamenting the loss of some Mad Men meets Father Knows Best world that NEVER existed as they imagine it.
    INFP 5w4, 9w8, 3w4

    Fi > Ti > Ne > Ni > Si > Te > Se > Fe

  5. #1545
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    INxx
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Disagree. They are by nature an oppressive sex. Even the act of reproduction is a violent process that involves generally larger, more aggressive males ramrodding their way into women's very centers. I'm all for replacing sex with technology as a means of reproduction.
    You'd make a rubbish feminist you know.

  6. #1546
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    EII Fi
    Posts
    8,217

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    You'd make a rubbish feminist you know.
    Labels are silly. I'll be happy as long as I stand for what is right.
    INFP 5w4, 9w8, 3w4

    Fi > Ti > Ne > Ni > Si > Te > Se > Fe

  7. #1547
    Senior Member YUI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    573

    Default

    @MDP2525

    Your post that was addressed to me is quite astute. You're 99% correct. I think it's funny that we're discussing MGTOW in a thread about 3rd-wave feminism. But I'll respond in-depth since you hit the mark so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    [...] Your experience re-affirms what I was talking to anximander about in my last post. A sense of bitterness. Weariness.

    All that is very understandable. The MGTOW seems very close to adopting the slogan "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle"

    I guess, they bought into the same ideas that the man is the provider. The focus doesn't seem to be on women being in their "place" but rather what a man is or how that is defined and where women had defined roles, men did as well.

    They bought into the traditional - because they were just as entranced as women were back then. I just can't help feeling as if most are passive by nature. (I use the term passive in a neutral way here, as I don't think it's neg/pos in general terms).

    So pendulums swing and these men had their neck out and it got cut when advances women's groups made with DV, court systems, etc. Women had a way to fight back - and some chose to fight dirty. I mean, that's equality. Women can be assholes, too.

    Personally, I've seen this first hand. It gets nasty. This is where I see the natural buyer beware attitude. I think a lot of MGTOW's are frankly recovering from trauma.

    I also think a lot of these men simply do not know how to recognize manipuative women. I know that sounds bad, but I can see these women a mile away.

    I've warned some of my male friends against marriage to their SO. I've heard:

    "She doesn't want to work. But it's okay. She doesn't need to. I make enough for us." (No kids here, btw)

    Hmm. And that's okay with you? Because if you divorce, you're paying, you know. Can't cry after the fact. (*red flag*)

    Oh, everytime you want to have an important discussion about changing a comfortable dynamic she'll change the subject and give you a blowjob? Using sexuality to avoid discussion. *red flag*

    This isn't relegated to women, I see it in men too. Just different expression.

    (again, I can't speak for all - just how I see it.) [...]
    Yes, basically MGTOW is for guys who have gotten beaten up playing the traditional marriage/dating roles and are "weary" of it all. In a previous post I think you said something about how your mother went through a tough divorce and swore off men for 20 years. Same with most MGTOW men. They're on their 20-year cycle of swearing off women.

    MGTOW is kind of a "He-Man Woman-Haters Club -- No Women Allowed." (For those who don't recognize the reference, it's from the kid's comedy, Spanky and Our Gang). MGTOW isn't a political organization and doesn't take political positions. It's just a place where pissed-off men can go and call women c***s, t***s, c**********s, and so on without fear of ramifications or outrage.

    And yes, basically a lot of the men there are former white knights who were into rescuing damsels in distress and got punished for it. They're enablers who carried water for female narcissists until they burnt out and swore off women for the foreseeable future (and that's a good description of me, too).

    Generally speaking, most of them aren't against those men and women who can achieve a happy marriage and family life. And aside from a segment of MGTOW people who are hard-core knuckle-dragging neanderthals (more on that later), most aren't against an independent woman who carries her own weight and goes her own way.

    But they *are* against traditional ideas of love and marriage that reinforce the idea of man as rescuer/white knight/enabler/beast of burden/meal ticket, and woman as victim/helpless/narcissist/nagging slave-driver/free rider. Perhaps over-sensitized as a result of their own enabling, they see white-knight and damsel-in-distress ideas as permeating the whole culture of traditional love and marriage, and so they simply reject all that.

    Furthermore, to the extent that *feminism* embraces a theme of woman as "victim of the patriarchy" and exhorts men to be mute supporters of women's needs and to carry water for women in their victimhood role, MGTOW men are naturally going to reject that as well. As far as they're concerned, that sort of feminism is just one more variation on the eternal theme of men being pushed into a secondary, enabling role.

    (More on MGTOW and feminism below, ladies. Please don't get your panties in a knot quite yet over this one isolated characterization of feminism, ladies.)

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    [...]But if this is the case MGTOW, is more of a support group. That's cool. I don't see why there is a hatred (if not a hatred, then a severe dislike) of feminism (broad term) though.

    They don't seem related at all. I have seen women be unethical in custody cases, fight dirty as hell. It's not illegal though and I've been the child of parents that went through an active 8 year custody battle. My dad happened to be the one abusing the court system to drain my mom's money.

    Anyway, but how the bitter weariness of that translates to a direct causal link to (broad term) feminism? Again. I don't see that. [...]
    You're quite right that there's no direct causal link between being "weary" and being anti-feminist. And in fact, MGTOW isn't officially anti-feminist. That would be a political position, and MGTOW isn't political. If you want men's organizations that embrace specific political positions, then go to the MRAs. They stake out specific political positions and platforms and agendas. Some even pursue those agendas in legal and legislative venues.

    But MGTOW itself is non-political. The only hard and fast rule is that you have to be against the institution of marriage as a legal contract that is profoundly disadvantageous to men.** How you express that opposition to marriage is up to you. You can even be happily married yourself or in some other long-term arrangement with a woman. But you have to be at least philosophically opposed to the legal "marriage contract."

    (** Footnote: I said "marriage as a legal contract that is profoundly disadvantageous to men." One might argue that when it comes to financial issues, it's not disadvantageous to men specifically, but rather to any party who is a primary wage-earner. But these days, that's still usually men. Also there are many aspects of marriage and divorce that specifically penalize men: Parental rights, accusations of abuse, etc.)

    So MGTOW is against marriage. There are also some secondary rules that may govern specific MGTOW forums. For instance, I post at MGTOW | Men Going Their Own Way. There, they say 1) No women allowed; 2) No advocating violence against women; and so on. But things like that would be up to the individual forum.

    Okay, so how do the *members* of MGTOW feel about feminism?

    One can divide MGTOW members into two rough camps:

    1) True knuckle-dragging neanderthals. The forum that I post at is international, and some men come from very conservative or woman-unfriendly backgrounds. Some of these guys genuinely want to turn back the clock and put women in a subservient position.

    2) Modern successful businessmen, worker, college students, fathers, etc. who recognize that it's neither possible nor desirable to turn back the clock on women's roles.

    Sometimes the two groups clash on a political issue. I've seen some pretty heated debates, particularly on abortion. So as a rule, topics at MGTOW forums mostly avoid politics altogether and focus on areas of agreement: How much marriage sucks.

    Naturally, discussing "how much marriage sucks" quickly shades over into "how much women suck" and even into "how much feminism sucks." Note what I said above:

    Furthermore, to the extent that *feminism* embraces a theme of woman as "victim of the patriarchy" and exhorts men to be mute supporters of women's needs and to carry water for women in their victimhood role, MGTOW men are naturally going to reject that as well. As far as they're concerned, it's just one more variation on the eternal theme of men being pushed into an enabling role.

    But it's still important to point out: Officially, MGTOW itself isn't anti-woman or anti-feminist. And in fact you'll often see threads praising equity feminists, etc. Ayn Rand is held in fairly high esteem (the phrase "going Galt" is part of MGTOW repertoire.) Some threads will even praise old-guard 3rd-wave feminists who acknowledge the needs of men: "She finally gets it," they say.

    But at the same time, a lot of MGTOW members don't want to hear it. If a someone posts an article by a woman saying something positive about men, many MGTOW members will say, "Who cares"; "Too little too late"; "Couldn't give a fuck." Some will even take a conspiratorial slant and see it as a Trojan Horse, an attempt by the establishment to lure MGTOW men "back to the plantation."

    According to many MGTOW-ers, the single best feature of feminism is that portion of feminism which teaches women to be genuinely independent and steers them away from dependence on men. Most MGTOW-ers are just fine with women who make no claims on men and go *their* own way and leave men alone. As they see it, the big problem with feminism is that it generally *doesn't* leave men alone; in fact, as they see it, much of modern feminism is geared toward blaming men and making additional extravagant claims on men's time and energy...

    Again, this is probably more than you wanted to know about MGTOW's position on feminism. But it seemed to be the core of your post, so I addressed it in detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I think you could give a fuck.

    It's why you're here, posting. If you didn't care a bit, you wouldn't be here.
    I guess it depends on how you define "give a fuck."

    I'm 60, retired, live alone, and have no particular allegiances or responsibilities. I focus on getting back in shape (I've lost 75 pounds over the last 5 years). I live in a house-wide man-cave with weights and exercise equipment scattered all over. I have shot-up pistol and shotgun targets tacked upon the wall, to remind me how to set the sights the next time I go to the range. I do what I want and keep odd hours.

    Still, one has to interact with the outside world. I socialize, I visit message boards and do some drive-by posts on topics of interest or areas where I'm knowledgeable, and so on.

    But if you try to shame me or drag me into a long debate or try to appeal to allegiance or responsibilities that you think I should have, you'll find out pretty quickly that I *really* don't give a fuck. I'm just here as long as it's fun. If you want a big investment from me in you or your cause, then fuck you. That starts feeling like enabling to me, and I just don't do that anymore. Hell, I don't even invest in MGTOW beyond maybe a post per month on that one forum I mentioned.

    Keep it light, and I'm fine with it. But the only things I really invest in these days are things like working out, a favorite video game or two, etc. In that sense, I'm very MGTOW.
    Spent the last year
    Rocky Mountain way
    Couldn't get much higher

    Out to pasture
    Think it's safe to say
    Time to open fire

  8. #1548
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    EII Fi
    Posts
    8,217

    Default

    I might be okay with the Denobulan marriage system from Star Trek Enterprise. I'd need to know more about it first.
    INFP 5w4, 9w8, 3w4

    Fi > Ti > Ne > Ni > Si > Te > Se > Fe

  9. #1549
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    5,256

    Default

    @YUI I gave you a rep. Got cut off. But wanted to say thanks for your reply. I have other questions that I will come back to, if you are down. I find these aspect fascinating for a lot of reasons. One, I have a crazy background that has brought so many pre-conceived notions of the sexes into play. I see so many...inconsistencies.

    Anyway, feel free to PM or visitor message if you don't want to continue here. I would you, but yours is disabled.
    ~Live and learn from fools and from sages~




    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  10. #1550
    Senior Member YUI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    573

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    @YUI I gave you a rep. Got cut off. But wanted to say thanks for your reply. I have other questions that I will come back to, if you are down. I find these aspect fascinating for a lot of reasons. One, I have a crazy background that has brought so many pre-conceived notions of the sexes into play. I see so many...inconsistencies.

    Anyway, feel free to PM or visitor message if you don't want to continue here. I would you, but yours is disabled.
    No problem. Like I said, you're on the mark. So I have no problem bantering with you about it. I don't do back-channel stuff (PMs and VMs), but I'll discuss in the open forums.
    Spent the last year
    Rocky Mountain way
    Couldn't get much higher

    Out to pasture
    Think it's safe to say
    Time to open fire

Similar Threads

  1. A new INFJ *waves!*
    By moonlit_reveries in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 05-30-2008, 01:14 AM
  2. Feminism
    By GZA in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 131
    Last Post: 02-29-2008, 07:31 PM
  3. The Ocean Waves: a NF introduction
    By music_educe in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-16-2007, 08:00 PM
  4. *waving*
    By Sandy in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
  5. Hello :D *waves*
    By Indranizia in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-12-2007, 04:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts