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  1. #1521
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    DING DING DING DING DING. (that's the grand prize bell that rings when someone makes the inevitable comparison between MRAs and the KKK)
    Yes, of course you'd jump on that. But do you actually see the point? The point is presupposition and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    I wasn't warning you away from anything. I was calling you on your preemptive dismissal of certain points-of-view which you already seem to have concluded coincide with hatred.
    are somewhat pointless words to use here. How enormous of a benefit of the doubt am I supposed to give?

    That's done. The debate about the reasoning is now.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #1522

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    do you actually see the point?
    Do you? Everytime we've had anything resembling a debate or discussion you have half-engaged while placing yourself at a predefined moral high ground, then used casually dismissive comments based on half-baked assumptions and presuppositions when it suits your moral high ground. So you can have the fun of entering a debate, then use those convenient tactics that either involve shaming or borderline ad hominem attacks when you are either unable, unwilling, or too lazy to go full in.

    How enormous of a benefit of the doubt am I supposed to give?
    It's not about giving a benefit of the doubt to anyone or anything but as a Ti guy I expect a little more precision and accuracy from you when you draw some of those comparisons and conclusions.

    Shit, it rubbed off on me and now I'm using ad hominems!
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  3. #1523
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Do you?
    What a non-response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Everytime we've had anything resembling a debate or discussion you have half-engaged
    Half-engaged?

    I put a fair amount of time in responding to this stuff. I've gone into detail. You haven't even responded to me in the Nu-male thread yet, by the way. When I decide to bother, there is no half-engagement. This is totally off. It's so off that it casts your effort in doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    while placing yourself at a predefined moral high ground, then used casually dismissive comments based on half-baked assumptions and presuppositions when it suits your moral high ground. So you can have the fun of entering a debate, then use those convenient tactics that either involve shaming or borderline ad hominem attacks when you are either unable, unwilling, or too lazy to go full in.
    Yeah, I can barf out a tangent of critical sounding statements about people, too. This is just flailing by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    It's not about giving a benefit of the doubt to anyone or anything but as a Ti guy I expect a little more precision and accuracy from you when you drawing some of those comparisons.
    It was perfectly reasonable. You miss the point perhaps tangling up the elements that aren't logically relevant with the parts that are, thus confusing the reason of the analogy. Which figures, because you didn't answer when I asked if you get it.

    The meaning is very straightforward. I've already spent a lot of my time in my life on this subject, so I'm well past the point of presuppositions. I'm not new to these people and failing to give them a chance because of a tiny blip of hearsay or something. And I'm not impressed with repeated evasion of any other kind of argument, addressing any other point, just to focus on this whole thing about me being a big, unfair meanie to MRAs and MTGOWs.

    EDIT: I have state, and re-state the premises of my criticism for what YUI cited that is the primary catalyst for this thread of the disagreement, but I haven't seen any rebuke to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Shit, it rubbed off on me and now I'm using ad hominems!
    Oh I'm sure it's the first time in your life.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #1524

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    I put a fair amount of time in responding to this stuff. I've gone into detail. You haven't even responded to me in the Nu-male thread yet, by the way. When I decide to bother, there is no half-engagement. This is totally off. It's so off that it casts your effort in doubt.
    I've responded to you consistently, the sole exception being your last post in the nu male thread because I've been focused on responding to your posts in this thread. I am juggling work duties and responding to thread posts and I'm only one person. Please don't take a failure to respond (yet) as evidence that I have conceded or can't continue.

    To be fair, I'm also waiting for a response to my question regarding your opinion on why people are increasingly less likely to divorce. What might be leading women and men in marriages to avoid divorce with increasing frequency?

    For that matter, there are posts I've made in this thread that you've completely ignored. I asked a genuine question of @Coriolis earlier and I'd hoped as a guy identifying as a feminist that you might also have something to say in response. It was a series of questions that were in no way intended as "gotcha" questions but to gauge sincerely how people might be able to reconcile an understanding/appreciation of feminism as an egalitarian movement with certain policies and agenda points that are anti-egalitarian.

    Yeah, I can barf out a tangent of critical sounding statements about people, too. This is just flailing by now.
    You might be surprised (or not) to learn I'm not the only person on this forum to have made similar observations of your style in the past, but call it flailing if it makes you feel better.

    It was perfectly reasonable. You miss the point perhaps tangling up the elements that aren't logically relevant with the parts that are, thus confusing the reason of the analogy. Which figures, because you didn't answer when I asked if you get it.
    To answer your question ("would you be telling me not to make "presuppositions" about the hatefulness of members of the KKK?"). First, I never told you to or not to make any presuppositions. Second, I'd tell you to come to your own conclusions about any individual or organization. I grew up in a town with active Klan Klowns (nickname my friends and I came up with in high school), but if there were a hypothetical scenario where I knew nothing at all of this group, I would approach them with a blank slate and try to avoid presupposing anything until I knew who they were and what exactly their ideology consisted of. How you decide to approach these things and make judgments is your own prerogative, because to reiterate, I never told you not to make presuppositions.

    Regarding the extent of your knowledge on MRAs and MGTOW, it was my observation that you make a claim that most cannot be victims. You claim to know more about these groups than is evident in your comments, well fine, let's call it an informed opinion rather than a presupposition. That said, what you did was make a very broad assessment backed with your own morality while not even vaguely attempting to explain what exactly you find about them to be ignorant and hateful ("If they are going to proceed to engage themselves in something as hateful and ignorant as MRA and MGTOW stuff over this situation, that is perhaps something to be ashamed of).

    Regarding the use of the word victim, has it occurred to you when looking at any "victim" to consider what exactly it is that might be leading any people to consider themselves victims before casually dismissing them and making some personal judgment on who can and cannot be a victim?

    Very broad shit like that, then a lot of spreading. That's your style, but if it works, more power to you.

    I've already spent a lot of my time in my life on this subject, so I'm well past the point of presuppositions.
    You generally have a very dismissive attitude toward anyone who you associate with those groups (MRA, MGTOW, et al). When you say "a lot" of time, are you referring to a few hours spent googling? You've made comments indicating you are very familiar with them, then written them off as a bunch of hateful, pathetic guys who anyone should be ashamed to associate with, all while failing to really say why, but hey, I'll take your word for it if you claim to know your shit.
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  5. #1525
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    To answer @Eruca and reply to @YUI

    I would tend to take the MGTOW point of view and I feel the MRM (men's rights movement) will fail, as they have increasingly moved away from a centrist, egalitarian position (which I could've gotten on board with) toward a traditionally conservative agenda (that I will never support).


    I would also say, having followed several MGTOW content producers, that several have already moved past the "bitching about women" stage and are trying to focus specifically on helping men and discussing a fairly broad range of issues from politics to history to evolutionary psychology and so on. I'm of the mind that the MRM needs to follow suit and stop trying to position themselves as the anti-feminism if they wish to succeed and be taken seriously...that may even warrant them swallowing their pride on occasion and allying with feminists on issues where a genuinely egalitarian outcome is sought by both movements. Of course keep in mind that many MGTOW reject egalitarianism (whilst also rejecting traditionally conservative gender roles)--ultimately it depends on each individual MGTOW, as they have actively rejected attempts to make them more unified under any one ideology or agenda.
    I think you are right here. The MRM won't be able to connect with even the more tepid forms of intersectional feminism because its established itself (if it agrees with this or otherwise) as a conservative, reactionary movement. So much of MRM theory is based on the idea that feminism has gone too far, that the old ways (where men were men and women acted like women!) were the best and that no end of evils have come about from the tinkering with gender rolls that has occurred in the last century as driven by feminism. All so consistent. Where I scratch my head, as a feminist, is when feminism is blamed for the oppression of men by traditional (feminists would say patriarchal) rolls that still survive in our society. That MRAs can blaim feminists for, say, hypergamy in relationships (I guess..?) but then also blame feminists for only men being included in the draft (An ancient patriarchal expectation, that feminist have been actively disagreeing with). That, and the whole general nastyness of huge sections of MRM online spaces.

    MGTOW is interesting because sometimes it straddles the line between movement and support group (and I'd be remiss if I didnt also include hate group, to that). I don't think they could connect with intersectional feminism perhaps because IFists care, generally, and the MGTOW approach is to not care at all but be awfully loud about it.

    I'd also like to point out its interesting that a thread about 3rd wave feminism has become a thread about the MRM. Pretty common nowadays it seems. Are you really happy with this, magic P?

  6. #1526
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    I've responded to you consistently, the sole exception being your last post in the nu male thread because I've been focused on responding to your posts in this thread. I am juggling work duties and responding to thread posts and I'm only one person. Please don't take a failure to respond (yet) as evidence that I have conceded or can't continue.
    That's fair enough. But don't say I'm half-invested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    To be fair, I'm also waiting for a response to my question regarding your opinion on why people are increasingly less likely to divorce. What might be leading women and men in marriages to avoid divorce with increasing frequency?
    That's because this string has been kept up in the mean time, and it's been crashing and burning pretty fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    For that matter, there are posts I've made in this thread that you've completely ignored. I asked a genuine question of @Coriolis earlier and I'd hoped as a guy identifying as a feminist that you might also have something to say in response. It was a series of questions that were in no way intended as "gotcha" questions but to gauge sincerely how people might be able to reconcile an understanding/appreciation of feminism as an egalitarian movement with certain policies and agenda points that are anti-egalitarian.
    Did you quote or mention me for those?


    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    You might be surprised (or not) to learn I'm not the only person on this forum to have made similar observations of your style in the past, but call it flailing if it makes you feel better.
    I am not surprised and I am not perturbed. So what if a bunch of people who keep disagreeing with me can pack together a wide range of not all that specific complaints about arguing with me? I certainly wouldn't say I see a constructive intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    To answer your question ("would you be telling me not to make "presuppositions" about the hatefulness of members of the KKK?"). First, I never told you to or not to make any presuppositions. Second, I'd tell you to come to your own conclusions about any individual or organization. I grew up in a town with active Klan Klowns (nickname my friends and I came up with in high school), but if there were a hypothetical scenario where I knew nothing at all of this group, I would approach them with a blank slate and try to avoid presupposing anything until I knew who they were and what exactly their ideology consisted of. How you decide to approach these things and make judgments is your own prerogative, because to reiterate, I never told you not to make presuppositions.
    You kept brining up presuppositions like it was a problem for the argument.

    And I'd also do the same in a hypothetical scenario where I knew nothing about them. But that is indeed only a hypothetical scenario which does not match the real one. I know a lot more than nothing about the people and things of which we speak, so there's no reason to act as a blank slate, and my comments on them aren't presuppositions, they are conclusion from observation. Fundamentally different things, those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Regarding the extent of your knowledge on MRAs and MGTOW, it was my observation that you make a claim that most cannot be victims.
    I would say it is highly improbable to me that a majority of them are victims of what they are claiming to be victims of, yes, that is what I would say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    You claim to know more about these groups than is evident in your comments, well fine, let's call it an informed opinion rather than a presupposition.
    Hey, we finally got there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    That said, what you did was make a very broad assessment backed with your own morality while not even vaguely attempting to explain what exactly you find about them to be ignorant and hateful ("If they are going to proceed to engage themselves in something as hateful and ignorant as MRA and MGTOW stuff over this situation, that is perhaps something to be ashamed of).
    Because even the most popular and mainstream hubs for people to gather and discuss these things are in fact rife with expressions of hate and ignorance. That includes A Voice For Men, which was founded by a horrible person by the way (go ahead, read about Paul Elam, and read the things he says if you haven't already), or pick whatever other place you want, all the other blogs, the subreddits, everything else in the idiotically named "manosphere". Surely you could at least admit that Return Of Kings is just a hate site for crackpots, right?

    Here, take it up with the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    I'll give you some added idea about why I have as much of an attitude on this as I do. Based on what I've seen at all of those sites (which I've seen plenty of), I have to conclude that you have either paid no attention to them and don't really know what you're talking about, or you know exactly how awful they are and you're being cute. I cannot believe anyone actually knows what the typical content is on those sites, and innocently has no clue what might be so bad about them. Nope, won't believe it.

    EDIT: Even the article that YUI posted contained the broad claim that MGTOWs were misogynistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Regarding the use of the word victim, has it occurred to you when looking at any "victim" to consider what exactly it is that might be leading any people to consider themselves victims before casually dismissing them and making some personal judgment on who can and cannot be a victim?
    Of course it has. While attending to the needs of victims is important, I'm afraid there are people in this world who claim to be victims when they really aren't. There are also people who use their victimization to justify awful things. And there are people where the two are inextricably tied together, where the claim of victimization is based on being denied the chance to be awful to other people.

    As has been said, when you've only been conditioned to the winning end of inequality, equality can feel like oppression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Very broad shit like that, then a lot of spreading. That's your style, but if it works, more power to you.

    You generally have a very dismissive attitude toward anyone who you associate with those groups (MRA, MGTOW, et al). When you say "a lot" of time, are you referring to a few hours spent googling? You've made comments indicating you are very familiar with them, then written them off as a bunch of hateful, pathetic guys who anyone should be ashamed to associate with, all while failing to really say why, but hey, I'll take your word for it if you claim to know your shit.
    You say it as if those two things are mutually exclusive. You're just asking me to make the comparison again, aren't you? Do you think getting to know the KKK really well would be mutually exclusive from having a really bad opinion of them? Maybe they're actually terrible of them so increased knowledge means a greater awareness of truth about how terrible they are.

    I can't provide a certificate here, I'm afraid. So to some extent you'd have to trust me (not that I expect you will). I've certainly spent more than a few hours Googling. This is a subject I've talked about for years. It's a subject I've talked about as a sociologist who's interested in gender, and it's a subject I've been talked about even before then and outside of that because of how I encountered in gaming communities YEARS before #gamergate and it being cool to talk about that.

    You seem to be saying that I must not know anything about them because I don't like them. That appears to be your uneducated guess, your presupposition.

    I'm not so dismissive that I can't attempt an actual dialogue with someone about it. That's what counts. That I'm dismissive otherwise, yes, I'm fine with that. I consider it justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    I would also say, having followed several MGTOW content producers, that several have already moved past the "bitching about women" stage and are trying to focus specifically on helping men and discussing a fairly broad range of issues from politics to history to evolutionary psychology and so on. I'm of the mind that the MRM needs to follow suit and stop trying to position themselves as the anti-feminism if they wish to succeed and be taken seriously...that may even warrant them swallowing their pride on occasion and allying with feminists on issues where a genuinely egalitarian outcome is sought by both movements. Of course keep in mind that many MGTOW reject egalitarianism (whilst also rejecting traditionally conservative gender roles)--ultimately it depends on each individual MGTOW, as they have actively rejected attempts to make them more unified under any one ideology or agenda.
    This was not directed at me, it was posted in response to YUI. Responding to it now, I'd say that such a change of pace from content producers would be nice, but I don't know who you mean, I haven't noticed that, and I'm not optimistic about it. The rest still doesn't sound very good anyhow.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #1527
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I'd also like to point out its interesting that a thread about 3rd wave feminism has become a thread about the MRM. Pretty common nowadays it seems. Are you really happy with this, magic P?
    I'm not happy with that, but it's also totally not surprising and I think it's kind of weird that you ask that question in a way like I have some responsibility for this. Am I mistaken, or was that your intention?

    If it is, I have a few questions.
    1: Did you read the OP?
    2: Do you know who the thread creator is?
    3: Did you read the initial conversation that followed?

    This old thread was never really about 3rd wave feminism in any serious fashion, and it's had very uphill odds of being so for as long as it's been around. It's died and been revived more than once since it was created, and ever since it was created it was really more about MRA stuff.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #1528
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not happy with that, but it's also totally not surprising and I think it's kind of weird that you ask that question in a way like I have some responsibility for this. Am I mistaken, or was that your intention?

    If it is, I have a few questions.
    1: Did you read the OP?
    2: Do you know who the thread creator is?
    3: Did you read the initial conversation that followed?

    This old thread was never really about 3rd wave feminism in any serious fashion, and it's had very uphill odds of being so for as long as it's been around. It's died and been revived more than once since it was created, and ever since it was created it was really more about MRA stuff.
    No, not at all, I asked because I thought you wouldn't be happy about it! I hadn't read the OP, or the initial conversation etc. Its a shame that the most active thread about feminism is one about bashing it. Do you think this forum can host discussion on the direction of feminism etc without it becoming about MRAs?

  9. #1529
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post


    What happened since the early seventies though? When did it change from a movement focused primarily on achieving an egalitarian meritocracy and move toward perpetuating victim narratives and encouraging a bizarre neotenous abdication of personal responsibility and agency whilst discouraging open discussion with anyone sharing different views

    (AKA the growing culture of safe spaces that even women's rights champion Obama has recently criticized in regards to college kids becoming increasingly "coddled" and afraid of discussion or any real exchange of ideas; whether or not he contributed to that growing culture is a question for a separate debate)?

    When did it become increasingly about defining and seeking out toxic masculinity and attacking trivial behaviors/actions that are not isolated to one gender such as manspreading (while ignoring "purse spreading")?
    I realize these aren't the only causes, but is it not a bit disturbing when bad behaviors that are exhibited by members of either sex (therefore making them a human issue that transcends gender and sex) are targeted as actions specific to one gender and therefore regarded as instances of oppression or "toxic" displays of masculinity (or femininity)?


    ----
    Are those of you who identify as feminists at all troubled by that (and please don't just retort with the typical "Not all feminists...." response--it's weak and a convenient way to absolve oneself of the more toxic aspects/agendas of the movement whilst essentially ignoring and allowing them to continue)?

    When did feminists start becoming more like Phyllis Schlafly and concerned less with empowerment and equality than they did with protecting what they seem to regard as a perpetually victimized and helpless sex?

    I would also say, having followed several MGTOW content producers, that several have already moved past the "bitching about women" stage and are trying to focus specifically on helping men and discussing a fairly broad range of issues from politics to history to evolutionary psychology and so on. I'm of the mind that the MRM needs to follow suit and stop trying to position themselves as the anti-feminism if they wish to succeed and be taken seriously...that may even warrant them swallowing their pride on occasion and allying with feminists on issues where a genuinely egalitarian outcome is sought by both movements. Of course keep in mind that many MGTOW reject egalitarianism (whilst also rejecting traditionally conservative gender roles)--ultimately it depends on each individual MGTOW, as they have actively rejected attempts to make them more unified under any one ideology or agenda.
    So, I'm reading thru this thread and these posts stood out to me for similar reasons, not being surface.

    I think a lot of feminists would say that Schlafly and the like were women who bought into the Patriarchy. Instead of fighting it they "made it work" for them. Now, was this through choice or through swallowing the bitter pill of dreams deferred?

    ...I hope you're following me here.

    I can't speak for her. I don't know her and her ilk's motivation. If this was in present day?? I would find this more likely a viewpoint of desiring the traditional.

    But anyway....since we are past that....I see (not ideologically) a similarity in some MGTOW's.

    I'm not well versed or educated in these matters. So forgive me. I am giving an outsider perspective to all this.

    But you spoke of wanting feminists to speak out against the triviality of manspreading, etc. and yet, there is quite a number of bitter, hateful/angry MGTOW's. Who described them as men who have been put through the ringer in divorce and court system. In this? I understand because it is very similar to how my mother felt after divorce from my father. She just wanted to be left alone. For 20 years she did.

    I would say, at one point she hated men. That is neither here nor there (my anecdote). But I understand the exhaustion.

    Do you see this as something you would speak out against if you see hateful rhetoric toward women? Or is it more of a "That's not how I see it, but it's not my fight."

    Because I see a lack of reaction to the inane in 3rd wave in a simlar fashion to "That's not how I see it, but it's not my fight." As, the subjects encompassed can be frivolous or demanding of attention, depending on the issue, of course.

    I hope you're seeing the juxtapositions I'm trying to make. I'm on mobile and don't feel like typing further but will clarify, and come back later if needed.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  10. #1530
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    No, not at all, I asked because I thought you wouldn't be happy about it! I hadn't read the OP, or the initial conversation etc. Its a shame that the most active thread about feminism is one about bashing it. Do you think this forum can host discussion on the direction of feminism etc without it becoming about MRAs?
    Ah, my apologies. Perhaps I'm still in a combative stance.

    Well, to play the old man of TypoC for a moment. I've been on this gosh dern forum since 2007 and have over 12,000 posts*, and from what I've seen in all that time, I'd say it isn't promising. Even before people were throwing around acronyms like MRA and MTGOW, people were still bringing up basically the same thing. The topics always ended up going in the same direction. It's not unusual that it happens here, it happens in most places. Some people have mockingly referred to this as the "but what about the menz?" problem.

    I'm not sure what can be done about it. The only people I've had particularly constructive conversations about it with are other people who identify as feminist (and it's not even guaranteed then). There's a really powerful animating quality to the subject. It also reminds me how multiple professors told me that they brace themselves for whenever they have to bring up feminism in a course, because it will always be the most contentious part.

    *You've been on the forum since '08, but you don't seem highly active, so I'm not sure how much you keep up with this stuff.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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