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  1. #1511
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    @Magic Poriferan

    Eh, you're doing a lot of nitpicking and shaming. I was just showing you that the issue of gynocentrism exists, not making the case itself.
    What does that even mean? It looks like you are saying that you aren't trying to claim there is a problem with gynocentrism that needs to be dealt with, but you are merely trying to show it's a thing people complain about. If that's the case, I never needed someone to tell me that some people make it into an issue. That's obvious. But just because some people have taken up something as an issue doesn't actually means it's a realistic reflection of reality (like Jewish conspiracies for example). What matters is discussing whether or not there is a real gynocentrism problem, not that somebody out there complains that there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    So picking apart a 3-minute video isn't a big accomplishment on your part.
    It wasn't supposed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Try watching the 15-minute video that I added later at the very end of my previous post. That's a bit more in-depth and responds to some of the nitpicks that you introduced.
    Hmmm. Yes, but based on your response to what I've said so far, why would I take my time analyzing a 15 minutes video on top of the 3 minute one? You seem only 50% engaged and are calling my attempt at a thorough response "nitpicking".

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    And comments like this are just shaming on your part:



    In that passage, you're just refusing to see a problem that others see pretty clearly. You would rather blame the victim.
    That seems like a horribly ironic use of a term here.

    I don't see most of these people as victims. I've already said why. If they are going to proceed to engage themselves in something as hateful and ignorant as MRA and MGTOW stuff over this situation, that is perhaps something to be ashamed of.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    And divorce rates are dropping because marriage rates are dropping. Suggesting that falling divorce rates signal that the institution of marriage is healthy is mixing up cause and effect. If marriage is viewed as problematic and fewer people get married, then divorce rates fall too.
    There has been a drop in divorce because of a drop in marriage rates. That is not the whole story, though. As was shown, the odds that a person who gets married will divorce has also been on the decline since the 1970s or so.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #1512
    Aspiring polymath asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't see most of these people as victims. I've already said why. If they are going to proceed to engage themselves in something as hateful and ignorant as MRA and MGTOW stuff over this situation, that is perhaps something to be ashamed of.
    It's very, very easy to take the high road and disengage from any discussion when one approaches their opponents with the presupposition that their opponents are hateful or that their own allies are and have always been nothing more than than victims.
    Formerly Anaximander

  3. #1513
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    It's very, very easy to take the high road and disengage from any discussion when one approaches their opponents with the presupposition that their opponents are hateful or that their own allies are and have always been nothing more than than victims.
    Only an argument against my position will suffice. I've made my move, someone needs to make theirs against it. But I haven't responded to your other post yet.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #1514
    Aspiring polymath asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Only an argument against my position will suffice. I've made my move, someone needs to make theirs against it. But I haven't responded to your other post yet.
    This was an argument against a specific position you just established.
    Formerly Anaximander

  5. #1515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    To answer @Eruca and reply to @YUI

    I would tend to take the MGTOW point of view and I feel the MRM (men's rights movement) will fail, as they have increasingly moved away from a centrist, egalitarian position (which I could've gotten on board with) toward a traditionally conservative agenda (that I will never support).

    [... snipped]
    Technically, I suppose I'm MGTOW fodder. I've been divorced twice and can't imagine getting married ever again. The second divorce was a bruising, hostile legal battle lasting two years. I probably paid 75k to 100k in legal costs alone (I had to pay lawyers on both sides, since my ex didn't have any independent income of her own). That doesn't even include the split of assets, the alimony, etc. I can't take another hit like that again, so I won't be getting married again. Hence: MGTOW fodder, at least technically.

    I hang around the MGTOW site. I'm an ex-Marine and I'm not horrified by the attitudes and language there. My biggest problem with MGTOW attitudes was that I just didn't want to identify with a group of wounded, raging males. I didn't used to see myself as one of them; I've moved on from whatever grudges I once had against my ex.

    But across time I have less and less to do with women. Women are pretty aggressive at my age (60), and frankly there are a lot of them mainly looking for a meal ticket. And I have to admit that I can see where a lot of these MGTOW guys are coming from.

    As for where MGTOW or MRAs should go or what they should do in the future, I don't really care. Like a lot of the MGTOW people in the forums there, I just want to touch base, socialize a bit sometimes, and then move on. I'm not into strategy or trying to channel the people and resources there. Couldn't give a fuck.
    Likes asynartetic, SpankyMcFly liked this post

  6. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    [...] I don't see most of these people as victims. I've already said why. If they are going to proceed to engage themselves in something as hateful and ignorant as MRA and MGTOW stuff over this situation, that is perhaps something to be ashamed of. [...]
    You're shaming again. But I'm not ashamed. MGTOW is all perfectly legal. You can tell my daddy on me if you want, but he's in his mid-80s and doesn't have any short-term memory left. He would forget what you said as soon as you said it.

    As for the rest of your post, I won't bother. We've butted heads; it's pretty clear that we're not going to change each other's opinions. So I'm happy to drop it. I don't do long debates; I just don't have the time.

  7. #1517
    Aspiring polymath asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I hang around the MGTOW site. I'm an ex-Marine and I'm not horrified by the attitudes and language there. My biggest problem with MGTOW attitudes is that I just didn't want to identify with a group of wounded, raging males. I didn't see myself as one of them; I've moved on from whatever grudges I once had against my ex.
    I understand what you're saying. That shit will rub off on you. For similar reasons I really don't want to get too steeped in the MGTOW stuff if a discussion focuses too much on the big bad womenz. I still have female friends I'd like to keep, so my support for MGTOW has more to do with a desire to see men find and define, on an individual basis, what they feel is a healthy masculinity and not what society, feminists, or MRAs deem as the "right kind" of masculinity. I really don't have as big a problem with feminism as some of my posts and rants might indicate, particularly when they actually worry about helping women and aren't pursuing some misandrist agendas (ie. trying to define masculinity--women certainly don't want or need men or mens' movements defining what is the "right" type of femininity, so they might also redrain from worrying about masculinity and let men come to these conclusions on their own).

    My favorite MGTOW are barbarossa and stardusk...they've been MGTOW since before the label existed and so they've really moved away from the overt misogyny and have instead shifted to a focus on helping other men.

    there is something cathartic about people bitching about the opposite sex, but at a point, you have to just live your life and focus on your personal happiness, otherwise we can turn into walking self-fulfilling prophecies as we drive invisible wedges between ourselves and society.
    Formerly Anaximander
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  8. #1518
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    This was an argument against a specific position you just established.
    No, you're just warning me away from my perceived attitude based on the claim that it will blind me or something.

    Would you call something a presupposition if it were based on what I've already learned about this? Let me put it this way, would you be telling me not to make "presuppositions" about the hatefulness of members of the KKK? If the answer is "no", then you understand how this works.

    As I already said, the men in question seem to be expressing hostility toward a lot of things that are not intrinsically tied to marriage, and therefore problems with the institution of marriage do not rationalize hostility toward them, and it strikes me as just an excuse that I can't really believe. I'm sure some men are screwed over, but I wonder how many of the people who have attitudes in line with the MRAs and MGTOWs have actually had one of the most experiences. And once again, recent trends don't seem to be going in the direction of what they are complaining about, weren't even going that way when they started. The timing doesn't seem to align with their claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    You're shaming again. But I'm not ashamed. MGTOW is all perfectly legal. You can tell my daddy on me if you want, but he's in his mid-80s and doesn't have any short-term memory left. He would forget what you said as soon as you said it.

    As for the rest of your post, I won't bother. We've butted heads; it's pretty clear that we're not going to change each other's opinions. So I'm happy to drop it. I don't do long debates; I just don't have the time.
    Shame has nothing to do with legality.

    But yes, go on your way if you aren't interested in dragging this out.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #1519
    Aspiring polymath asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, you're just warning me away from my perceived attitude based on the claim that it will blind me or something.

    Would you call something a presupposition if it were based on what I've already learned about this? Let me put it this way, would you be telling me not to make "presuppositions" about the hatefulness of members of the KKK? If the answer is "no", then you understand how this works.

    As I already said, the men in question seem to be expressing hostility toward a lot of things that are not intrinsically tied to marriage, and therefore problems with the institution of marriage do not rationalize hostility toward them, and it strikes me as just an excuse that I can't really believe. I'm sure some men are screwed over, but I wonder how many of the people who have attitudes in line with the MRAs and MGTOWs have actually had one of the most experiences. And once again, recent trends don't seem to be going in the direction of what they are complaining about, weren't even going that way when they started. The timing doesn't seem to align with their claim.
    DING DING DING DING DING. (that's the grand prize bell that rings when someone makes the inevitable comparison between MRAs and the KKK)

    I wasn't warning you away from anything. I was calling you on your preemptive dismissal of certain points-of-view which you already seem to have concluded coincide with hatred. Shit, technically I was just making an observation on something I have noticed in many debates on any range of topics. It is very easy to disengage when one can rationalize that their opponent is, by nature, immoral or "bad," and therefore not worthy of being argued with.
    I am not telling you to or not to make presuppositions, as you suggest. Presuppose all you want, no one is stopping you.
    Formerly Anaximander

  10. #1520
    Aspiring polymath asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    the odds that a person who gets married will divorce has also been on the decline since the 1970s or so.
    Why?
    Formerly Anaximander

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