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  1. #1461
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    A women can do a man's job but a man will 9 times out of 10 do it better.
    Evidence?
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  2. #1462
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    It seems to me like you don't understand the basic principles behind a study.
    Yeah, bit shit when that happens, isn't it?

  3. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Evidence?
    Sports. Put any female team in sports against a male team, the male team will almost always win.

  4. #1464
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Sports. Put any female team in sports against a male team, the male team will almost always win.
    Having seen a bit of the Women's FIFA World Cup and comparing it to how guys play football, the men will roll on the floor pretending to be injured while the women score many goals.

  5. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    ...why admire someone who doesn't understand what feminism is?
    You mean the bullshit definition of what feminism is supposed to be?

    Yeah, I guess, when 80% of the women who filed for divorce, all 80% of had husbands that were physically abusive.

    Or is this just more unhappiness and dissatisfaction of the entitled female?
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  6. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Having seen a bit of the Women's FIFA World Cup and comparing it to how guys play football, the men will roll on the floor pretending to be injured while the women score many goals.
    ok? even if that were true that doesn't mean any men's FIFA world cup team would wipe the floor with the women's team.

  7. #1467
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    ok? even if that were true that doesn't mean any men's FIFA world cup team would wipe the floor with the women's team.
    And if there was a men vs women national team match, if the women win, what excuse will you have?
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  8. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    And if there was a men vs women national team match, if the women win, what excuse will you have?
    It wouldn't happen. LOL

  9. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I hope that ultimately the flexibility changes society such that more people are more comfortable with their lifestyle choices and have fewer regrets. I hope that if it turns out, for instance, that more women than men continue to stay home with children, that will be because they really want to do that, rather than that they are forced into it by expectations. It would also be good for homemakers of either gender to be equal partners in family decisions, and for their economic contribution to the family and to the community to be understood and respected.

    I hope another of the changes is for men and women to feel free to be themselves, whether that is exhibiting inherent characteristics and preferences traditionally associated with the opposite sex, or participating in activities or professions historically favored by the opposite sex. A man who stops trying to suppress "feminine" traits is not becoming like a woman, he is allowing himself to be his true self.
    The thing is that, contrary to feminist hopes, very few men are interested in taking on a domestic role. However they have convinced an increasing number of women not to, which means that men and women are competing more and more for the same positions. This lowers wages and increases unemployment. While I acknowledge it is not a zero-sum game the number of available jobs is never going to increase at the same rate (this is where I disagree with @uumlau). History should teach us that a pool of disenfranchised, angry young men is dangerous in any society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In some industries, jobs are going unfilled, largely due to lack of candidates with the necessary training and education. One way to address this is outreach activities directed at demographic groups underrepresented in these fields. I see more of a shift in workplace demographics, then, where the representation of women in traditionally male fields increases, the representation of males in traditionally female fields increases, and salaries even out somewhat.
    Forcibly "evening out" the number of women and men in a given profession is not the answer, because again, few men want to enter female-dominated professions, while many women want to enter male-dominated professions. If you looked at how workforce representation has changed over time, you would see that the proportion of men in traditionally female-dominated professions has stayed rather low despite the few admirable (if misguided) outreach attempts. Instead of trying to force men into do jobs they don't want to do for the sake of "balance", you might achieve success in encouraging more women to do them. But of course, it isn't very politically correct to acknowledge men and women are just better at some things than others. I forget how deep that cuts.

    So at this point, let me rephrase my question into a statement: it is not sustainable for all the social change movement to be in one direction. Trying to force to men adapt to something we don't agree with isn't a very good idea. So, what's your plan B? At least I have one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't see such a strong moral dimension to it all. As much blame for lower birth rates and childless adults can be placed on the nature of the traditional workplace as on birth control itself. More women (and men) would have more children if it were not still so difficult to reconcile with a career or profession in many cases.
    Most women (and men, for that matter) only work because they have to - not because they want to. A more challenging, but ultimately successful solution would be address the economic inequalities that mean more households could get by on one income. Imagine a world where only your husband would have to work 8 to 5 doing boring, stressful shit that sucks spirit and libido. That sounds like a much better deal for women than modern feminism has given them.
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  10. #1470
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You have everything backwards, women don't enter these dirty fields because they choose not to, they aren't raised to view them as non lady like. Women aren't interested in such pursuits as it isn't their strength much like many men aren't interested in nursing. There are biological differences between the brains of men and women. We see in this scientific study which maps out the male and female brain you can see the strengths and weaknesses of both men and women. "Many previous psychological studies have revealed significant differences between the sexes in the ability to perform various cognitive tests. Men tend to outperform women involving spatial tasks and motor skills - such as map reading - while women tend to better in memory tests, such as remembering words and faces, and social cognition tests, which try to measure empathy and “emotional intelligence”.
    The same sorts of arguments were used to exclude blacks from many occupations and positions, such as being military pilots. The Tuskeegee Airmen fought a tremendously uphill battle, just to be allowed to join the real battle against the real enemy, to great effect in the end.* Black slaves were viewed as happy to have white folks take charge and tell them what to do, since whites were smarter, of course. So much for your "women aren't interested . . . ". When you are raised your entire life being told that people in group A do X and people in group B do Y, you tend to follow those prescriptions unless you are unusually independent, or (as you point out) hardships force you to push beyond these limits. Then you see how artificial they really are.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You keep bringing up poor women in times of war, remember that in harsh times women had no choice to acquire such jobs because men are out sacrificing their lives. Women historically have taken the safer route in comparison to men, society has always catered toward their needs.An example of this was when women were given the right to vote they were also exempt from the draft
    Men are still required to serve their country as a responsibility of course you don't see feminists complaining about this inequality however.
    Women historically have been limited to "the safe route", which has coincided with "the less challenging, rewarding, fulfilling, instructive, and lucrative route" more often than not. Stop trying to baby women. We need more functioning adults, not adult-sized juveniles. And those "harsh times" are what the majority of the population has known for the majority of human existence. The modern housewife who can spend her day in relative leisure, taking her kids to playdates and soccer games and volunteering with the PTO, is a very recent development outside the most privileged classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    The thing is that, contrary to feminist hopes, very few men are interested in taking on a domestic role. However they have convinced an increasing number of women not to, which means that men and women are competing more and more for the same positions. This lowers wages and increases unemployment. While I acknowledge it is not a zero-sum game the number of available jobs is never going to increase at the same rate (this is where I disagree with @uumlau). History should teach us that a pool of disenfranchised, angry young men is dangerous in any society.
    A couple of centuries ago, few women would have acknowledged a desire to take on traditionally male roles. Culture and social pressures change very slowly. The jobs going empty today are often in STEM fields, which align well with traditional male expectations. Industry is realising that women candidates have to be encouraged as well to get the needed numbers and talent. If men are going around angry and disenfranchised, it is only because they are too lazy and unmotivated to get the training and skills needed to fill these jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Forcibly "evening out" the number of women and men in a given profession is not the answer, because again, few men want to enter female-dominated professions, while many women want to enter male-dominated professions. If you looked at how workforce representation has changed over time, you would see that the proportion of men in traditionally female-dominated professions has stayed rather low despite the few admirable (if misguided) outreach attempts. Instead of trying to force men into do jobs they don't want to do for the sake of "balance", you might achieve success in encouraging more women to do them. But of course, it isn't very politically correct to acknowledge men and women are just better at some things than others. I forget how deep that cuts.

    So at this point, let me rephrase my question into a statement: it is not sustainable for all the social change movement to be in one direction. Trying to force to men adapt to something we don't agree with isn't a very good idea. So, what's your plan B? At least I have one.
    Who is advocating force? Your "plan B" seems to be to cling to traditional stereotypes and restrictions, a system under which you, of course, have everything to gain. "Plan A" hasn't changed: remove artificial barriers, from everyone, regarding everything. Then if the horse doesn't want to drink, it's because he/she really doesn't want to, not because someone forbade it, poisoned the water, or convinced him/her that the water didn't even exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Most women (and men, for that matter) only work because they have to - not because they want to. A more challenging, but ultimately successful solution would be address the economic inequalities that mean more households could get by on one income. Imagine a world where only your husband would have to work 8 to 5 doing boring, stressful shit that sucks spirit and libido. That sounds like a much better deal for women than modern feminism has given them.
    Again, speak for yourself. The more creative solution is to improve the nature of the workplace such that everyone can spend 20-30 hours in an occupation aligned with their interests and skills. (That's actually how MBTI started, to help people figure this out.) Then everyone gets time for family, hobbies, and volunteering as well.

    *Read about a recent women's equivalent.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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