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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #1431
    Senior Member Array edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Well I do not know the personal context so all I can see is....'rant, rant...bloody feminists...rant rant'. This may happen in places with rampant aggressive/extreme feminists like idk maybe goldsmith's? but in the main feminism is pretty sedentary and relaxed, mostly i notice that people equate it to equality in the sexes and leave it at that without wanting anyone to prove themselves in any way until possibly a situation arises when they act in the opposite of which they claim to be.
    Sexism is still rife... though I would hasten to add it is so both genders. And the subtlety is akin to that of propagated newspapers namely society for the most part is completely unaware of what lays beneath. It takes a long long time for these things to slowly diminish, though in some areas leaps and bounds have been made. All this pertains to western countries though.

    We still have huge issues in some countries which a lot of people often omit from discussions around feminism... i.e Afganistan and instead focus on western countries.

    @edchidna1000 actually reading through the comments and the replies the author has made has changed my mind a great deal, I now think he is probably a misogynist or at the very least incredibly sexist, the comments and replies are very telling as to a truer nature of the reasoning behind the piece he posted initially.
    Well, it is a rant. A rant with points that seem reasonable.

    My experience of those who call themselves feminists has been usually of the more radical kind. I would think it quite hard to assess a movement by its 'sedentary and relaxed' members, given that they are least likely to participate in any feminist activism if they are so relaxed.

    There are exceptions, such as those who make a point of being 'equity' feminists like Christina Hoff Summers. However, she is an older figure nowadays. Younger people interested in equality of the sexes who share Hoff Summers' viewpoints tend to call themselves Egalitarians or Humanists now.

    I absolutely agree that some first wave feminism is needed in many first world countries where women don't have equal rights with men.

    Ah, I haven't read his later comments. What did you find?
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    Let me count the ways Array Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    Well, it is a rant. A rant with points that seem reasonable.

    My experience of those who call themselves feminists has been usually of the more radical kind. I would think it quite hard to assess a movement by its 'sedentary and relaxed' members, given that they are least likely to participate in any feminist activism if they are so relaxed.

    There are exceptions, such as those who make a point of being 'equity' feminists like Christina Hoff Summers. However, she is an older figure nowadays. Younger people interested in equality of the sexes who share Hoff Summers' viewpoints tend to call themselves Egalitarians or Humanists now.

    I absolutely agree that some first wave feminism is needed in many first world countries where women don't have equal rights with men.

    Ah, I haven't read his later comments. What did you find?

    Well he starts to say that MRA groups are much better than feminism groups and supports people who call feminists b*tches and c*nts. And the like. I'm reading between the lines but it does looks pretty clear to me.

    I have reasoned myself as as someone who believes in equal rights rather than feminist now purely because of what people assume I mean by feminism, I am of the old school, probably the 'second'? wave, honestly i do not know what you would call it but I suppose the burning bra era.

    Also the reason the 'moderate' or 'modern' or 'normal' feminist is not heard so much is because they do not shout so loudly. In all area's the more extreme get the spotlights. There are plenty of groups who are proactive in women's/men's rights who are not so radical. The few who create the largest 'scenes' travel the farthest and receive the attention though... since time immemorial.


    More Edit: reading more comments of the linked art statement thingy he seems to go back and fourth with his views a little. Maybe misogynist is incorrect. Could just be cry for attention allowing himself to sway with the reeds.
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    Senior Member Array edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Well he starts to say that MRA groups are much better than feminism groups and supports people who call feminists b*tches and c*nts. And the like. I'm reading between the lines but it does looks pretty clear to me.

    I have reasoned myself as as someone who believes in equal rights rather than feminist now purely because of what people assume I mean by feminism, I am of the old school, probably the 'second'? wave, honestly i do not know what you would call it but I suppose the burning bra era.

    Also the reason the 'moderate' or 'modern' or 'normal' feminist is not heard so much is because they do not shout so loudly. In all area's the more extreme get the spotlights. There are plenty of groups who are proactive in women's/men's rights who are not so radical. The few who create the largest 'scenes' travel the farthest and receive the attention though... since time immemorial.


    More Edit: reading more comments of the linked art statement thingy he seems to go back and fourth with his views a little. Maybe misogynist is incorrect. Could just be cry for attention allowing himself to sway with the reeds.
    Hmm... I don't know about those MRA groups, they seem a lot like feminism groups, except campaigning for the rights of men rather than women. Doesn't seem to have learned from the flaws of how feminism is practised at all.

    I'm not sure how sexist those words are, except that they are clearly deragotory and used for women rather than men. There are similar words aimed at solely at men. Either way, regardless of misogyny, they're rude to call people.

    Well, the 'modern' feminist is usually the especially radical sort. Anita Sarkeesian would be a good example. Alternatively, the more moderate modern feminist would be Emma Watson who wants to enlist men to help women, which is fair enough, if the movement showed any sign of returning the favour. The other modern moderates are basically hobby feminists or silent feminists, who just happen to call themselves feminists but don't do much. This is because there isn't much to do in the modern western world for women except to go on 'slut' walks, complain about women not going into STEM fields using one's degree in gender studies and convert more and more of our concrete reality into socially-constructed contingencies. The most important battles are in other parts of the globe, yet these 'moderate' feminists who supposedly have their priorities in order are doing nothing about it, largely due to cultural relativism and the belief that if an abuser of women is not western, then somehow white feminists can't tell the abuser to stop because that would look privileged.

    Equal pay for the same work and birth control? That would be 2nd Wave I think. A good wave.
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    Senior Member Array ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post

    More Edit: reading more comments of the linked art statement thingy he seems to go back and fourth with his views a little. Maybe misogynist is incorrect. Could just be cry for attention allowing himself to sway with the reeds.
    This is all about the women who turn him down and won't give him the sex he deserves. Not that it's shocking or anything but nearly every rant he's ever had here about women/feminists/college girls/women who have a career, ends in some kind of bitch/complaint that none of them will fuck him and oh, they should because they are missing....actually I have no idea what they're missing. And his horrific race views - those are also available for reading. He blames all of that on his upbringing.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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    Let me count the ways Array Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    This is all about the women who turn him down and won't give him the sex he deserves. Not that it's shocking or anything but nearly every rant he's ever had here about women/feminists/college girls/women who have a career, ends in some kind of bitch/complaint that none of them will fuck him and oh, they should be because they are missing....actually I have no idea what they're missing. And his horrific race views - those are also available for reading. He blames all of that on his upbringing.
    Yes I did think there was a lot more to this... was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, I actually wonder if his mother did not back him when he needed it. I have noticed a trend in men who have very similar issues with women, often in cases where mothers have been absent, or very weak willed against an abusive person in the home or neglectful of their children. The peculiar thing is that they (not necessarily this guy but the ones I am thinking of) desperately want strong opinionated passionate women to yield to them, it's as if they feel this will fill a void for them and replace broken memories. Idk maybe i'm looking too far into it.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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    Analytical Dreamer Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Also the reason the 'moderate' or 'modern' or 'normal' feminist is not heard so much is because they do not shout so loudly. In all area's the more extreme get the spotlights. There are plenty of groups who are proactive in women's/men's rights who are not so radical. The few who create the largest 'scenes' travel the farthest and receive the attention though... since time immemorial.
    This. There is a minority of self-described feminists being loud and obnoxious, and a majority quietly going about the business of improving things for everyone. Should be obvious which group is easier to spot without effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    One of the tenants of second wave feminism was that the nuclear family perpetrated "patriarchal attitudes", and hence was an impediment to feminism's future success. Be happy, but don't lecture me on the consistencies of your choice.
    One of the tenets of the early labor movement was that the factory environment was dangerous and exploitational. The answer, obviously, wasn't to shut down factories or to keep people from working in them, but rather to improve safety and working conditions. Similarly, the nuclear family isn't doomed forever to perpetuate patriarchal attitudes just because it has long done so. (I sense inability to change as an undercurrent in many of your views on things . . . but change doesn't happen on its own.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Feminists in your camp insist that the ideology just is about "choice" like a mantra. However, the examples here (yourself included) have advocated measures such as quotas in education and what is essentially childhood indoctrination (telling girls to play with masculine toys, withholding feminine role models, et cetera) that violates peoples' agency. I can tell that you aren't happy with a fair game. You want to rig it.
    It is about choice. Not just for housewives, but for sons who don't want to follow in their father's professional footsteps, daughters and sons who don't want to marry the person their parents choose, and fathers who don't want to lose out on their children's growing-up years just to keep the family financially solvent. A homemaker who has deliberately chosen that lifestyle will be better-adjusted, more productive, more stable, and overall happier than one coerced or pressured into it by family, friends, husband, or society at large. Some men are finding that an attractive choice as well, now that society's expectations for men are loosening up. About time.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One of the tenets of the early labor movement was that the factory environment was dangerous and exploitational. The answer, obviously, wasn't to shut down factories or to keep people from working in them, but rather to improve safety and working conditions. Similarly, the nuclear family isn't doomed forever to perpetuate patriarchal attitudes just because it has long done so. (I sense inability to change as an undercurrent in many of your views on things . . . but change doesn't happen on its own.)


    It is about choice. Not just for housewives, but for sons who don't want to follow in their father's professional footsteps, daughters and sons who don't want to marry the person their parents choose, and fathers who don't want to lose out on their children's growing-up years just to keep the family financially solvent. A homemaker who has deliberately chosen that lifestyle will be better-adjusted, more productive, more stable, and overall happier than one coerced or pressured into it by family, friends, husband, or society at large. Some men are finding that an attractive choice as well, now that society's expectations for men are loosening up. About time.
    Here is the question I ask myself: how is this flexibility is going to change society?

    Essentially, women are becoming more like men, but men are not becoming more like women.

    The sexes are competing more and more for the same kinds of work, but the number of jobs available for people isn't rising at the same rate. This is leading to higher unemployment, and it seems that men will disproportionately be affected in the future. Also, while very few men are interested in a traditional female role, the inverse is happening quite often, which means the average fertility of Western women has already lowered to unsustainable levels. The tendency to start families later is also leading to more children being born with genetic disorders.

    And at the same time, we have mass immigration of aliens...

    Excuse me for being cynical about the future. I really do believe that there is such a thing as too much choice, and feminism deserves some blame for creating the poor situation we find ourselves in.

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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Here is the question I ask myself: how is this flexibility is going to change society?
    It already has. The main problem is that it takes a while for a culture to adapt to changes like this.

    And the change wasn't "feminism". The change was ubiquitous and mostly reliable birth control, abortion and easy divorce. (The divorce part was made easier in part by the first two.) Without these changes, "feminism" would be little more than "mommy" wanting "daddy" to spend more time caring for the kids so she can do what she wants. Get rid of the kids, and you eventually end up with today's style of feminism. More aptly, give women exclusive control over whether kids result from sexual activity, and you get the specific problems that men complain about w/r to modern feminism.

    A parallel thing that I see going on is that adults don't have to "grow up" like they used to. Having kids forces you to be responsible, to make trade-offs, to realize that no, man or woman, you don't get to just do whatever the heck you want to do.


    Essentially, women are becoming more like men, but men are not becoming more like women.
    No. Look more closely.

    Women are becoming more like boys. Men are becoming more like boys.

    The sexes are competing more and more for the same kinds of work, but the number of jobs available for people isn't rising at the same rate. This is leading to higher unemployment, and it seems that men will disproportionately be affected in the future.
    In the weird "all else being equal" universe that amateurs (including many professional economists!) use to understand things, this would be true. In general, more people allows more productivity and more growth, not less. There are other economic forces (that I won't bother elaborating here, it's too much of a tangent) that keep the number of jobs down even as the population increases.

    Also, while very few men are interested in a traditional female role, the inverse is happening quite often, which means the average fertility of Western women has already lowered to unsustainable levels. The tendency to start families later is also leading to more children being born with genetic disorders.
    There is a tendency in this direction, yes.

    What's really happening and going to happen over time is a tendency in the opposite direction. Those segments of the population that tend to choose lower birthrates will significantly diminish over time. They don't raise children to carry on their culture of lower birth rates. (While "significant" - it's an EXPONENTIAL decrease! - the time scale is very large. The lower birth rates you mention don't really have measurable consequences until 50-100 years later.)

    And at the same time, we have mass immigration of aliens...
    This is problematic for other reasons, but not economic ones, I don't think.

    I really do believe that there is such a thing as too much choice,
    I disagree with this sentiment for the most part. I will admit, however, that the choices added by birth control technology have led to a great deal of moral confusion. There is a huge difference between using birth control to choose to not have (another?) child that one cannot afford to raise, and using birth control to allow oneself to follow a lifestyle of meaningless sexual relationships. Both sexes are following this latter path, by the way: this isn't "feminism", it's just pursuing base needs without growing up emotionally. Modern "feminism", this "third-wave" brand, is simply just an overall classification of women's needs and desires in this "free sex" world.

    and feminism deserves some blame for creating the poor situation we find ourselves in.
    I'm being very specific in my denouement, here. I'm not blaming feminism or women's rights for anything. Quite the contrary. What is being complained about in this thread are symptoms, in my opinion, of a change in technology and society's reactions to it. Feminism, per se, isn't to blame for anything. People want what they want. Their wants never really changed that much. The only thing that has changed in the last century or so is the technological change and the subsequent cultural consequences of that technology.

    I have my opinions about particular feminist arguments, that I've stated elsewhere. That's a different issue. The main thing I'm trying to make clear is that feminism isn't causing any of this. Women aren't causing any of these. This thread is really complaining about things that are an effect of reliable birth control technology. Not that the complaints are unmerited: the injustices that some feminists advocate should be pointed out. In doing so however, we need to take care that we are complaining about injustices, and not about women.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Then Stepford is the place for you. Too bad it doesn't exist.
    I had a stepford girlfriend. I got bored though. I roamed the house looking for something to do and she kept handing me the remote and insisting I should watch TV.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

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    To an extent, the really radical femininsts IMO are almost destroying standing in the way of their own goals. I have probably said this before in this thread, but when something is twisted to the extent where it becomes more about accomplishing a goal at any cost just because you identify a certain way, as a feminist, instead of it being about what you are actually trying to accomplish, then that really just stands to make a movement more laughable.

    It seems as if many feminists, especially the stronger ones- who seem to be the main issue, remove the ideologies of feminism away from what it is actually supposed to be about, and instead turn it into a tool for self gratification, for standing up for their beliefs at all costs- but not fully understanding what those beliefs are. So instead of really trying to understand the roots of feminism, they branch it all out hoping that the more extreme their opinions are, and the louder that they say them, the more power that they have to force something along. If it means that they need to attack men, attack the more traditional stereotypical female 'role', contradict what their expectations are and then deny that contradiction/inflame upon it, they will do so. All in the name of defending their longterm agendas, but really ignoring that sometimes it builds or destroys itself on the short term.

    Radical feminism to me is turning a blind and dismissive eye to what doesn't rigidly fit within a certain group of expectations, and then just perpetuating one vantage point backed by skewed facts. And radical feminism trickles down to every other party, making something that may very well have stood strongly on its own laugable.
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