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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #1381
    HopelessSituationWarrior Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Do people ever tell you that they feel trolled when you quote them? Because I do.
    The feeling is mutual.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

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    Level 8 Scumlord Array SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is one of the things that should be obvious, but it turns out that it's an overall invisible effect.

    What's invisible? The fact that living in a Western society with advanced technology and rule of law - never mind women's rights enshrined in law. We forget how much time and work went into creating all of this that we take for granted. Drop the rule of law, or drop the technology, and women are back to being subjugated and abused.
    Feminism, it's a Maslow thing. The 'rule of law' only enables the populace and governments to enact reform and 'feel' relatively confident about it, but first you need the will, hence a Maslow thing.




    The key ingredient is an abundance economy, which can come about due to technology freeing up peoples resource of 'time' to do so. Technology while very helpful isn't necessary. Look at Saudi Arabia and those other oil abundant countries, they don't need tech, just the money to pay people to do the oil exploration and oil wells for them. Feminism doesn't 'work' or sell in a 3rd world countries. When people are poor and in a subsistence economy they don't have the time or the will to engage in political activism. They are too busy putting food on the table, raising families and other lower tier activities. Whether that activism is judicial reform, educational, anti corruption etc.

    Just look what washing machines, dish washers, toasters, oven's, refrigeration did for us, it freed up more time for housewives, who then had the luxury of time to rail against the patriarchy, BAM 2nd wave.

    If anyone ever google 'famous' feminists you'll quickly note that they are almost entirely 1) white 2) college educated 3) 1st. worlder

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  3. #1383
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    WTF????

    Only in western societies raping women is considered criminal?

    Bit confused as to what you are trying to say here.
    I'm saying that you'd have to change the overall society and culture. You can't just install institutions that look like a democracy.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #1384
    Senior Member Array riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm saying that you'd have to change the overall society and culture. You can't just install institutions that look like a democracy.
    You mean western culture?

    What you need is law and order and emphasis that these are enforced consistently. Not a cultural change and definitely not a western cultural implementation.

    Bad Uumlau bad uumlau!!!!
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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    You mean western culture?

    What you need is law and order and emphasis that these are enforced consistently. Not a cultural change and definitely not a western cultural implementation.

    Bad Uumlau bad uumlau!!!!
    These are more intertwined than you might think. Not that any particular culture is all good, but rule of law is essentially cultural. You can have all the constitutional democractic elements in the government, but if the culture of the people is OK with "suspending" them, there is no rule of law. More importantly: the culture of the people must insist on keeping them. Merely being passively in favor of rule of law isn't good enough.

    Keep in mind, I'm talking about culture in very general and abstract terms. I'm not talking about language, cuisine, art or all the superficial elements of what we often regard as culture. I'm talking about what a people believes to be true, and the strength of those beliefs. If those beliefs do not conform to the notion of rule of law (which is as opposed to rule of kings/autocrats), then rule of law will not succeed, and only tyrants can rule.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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    It seems to me that any optimism regarding that might end up reliant too heavily on the beliefs of a linear progression towards the western social model...

    That is kind of a problem, when internationally, the current zeitgeist is increasingly viewing that model as a declining one, when regimes and social structures are increasingly evaluated on competence more then ideology, which is heavily impacted by the Chinese rise and the impression of American failure (A shift who's celebration is often fueled by resentment towards these long years of western hegemony).

    Essentially, women's rights in such places - or human rights in general - can not rely on the hope that they will eventually "Evolve into western values". It doesn't work like that.

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    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    The key ingredient is an abundance economy, which can come about due to technology freeing up peoples resource of 'time' to do so. Technology while very helpful isn't necessary. Look at Saudi Arabia and those other oil abundant countries, they don't need tech, just the money to pay people to do the oil exploration and oil wells for them. Feminism doesn't 'work' or sell in a 3rd world countries. When people are poor and in a subsistence economy they don't have the time or the will to engage in political activism. They are too busy putting food on the table, raising families and other lower tier activities. Whether that activism is judicial reform, educational, anti corruption etc.
    The highlighted is truly unfortunate. Feminism brings lower birth rates, so fewer mouths to feed; greater female say in economics, including family spending, so available money goes to children, health, and education rather than alcohol and whores; and greater empowerment of women to be earners, bringing more money into the family. People who view feminism as something a society has time for once its basic needs and economic hardships have been addressed are missing the boat.

    It is worth noting here that one of the first goals of feminism, even in western societies, is ensuring that women (and also children) are able to meet those most basic of needs on the bottom two levels of the Maslow diagram: food, water, shelter, safety, and medical care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    But increasingly in the echo chamber you notice an almost religious notion that fighting the "patriarchy" anywhere is fighting the patriarchy and helping women everywhere, that the protests in American and Canadian universities about literature they find offensive is somehow by magical powers also helping the women in the middle east get access to literature in the first place. In reality, it does the exact opposite:
    Right now there are two Arabs having coffee after a day of work, one of them has heard his wife talk about how she wishes she could have finished school, and he is very proud at how bright his daughter is and stops to think about her future. He brings it up to his friend, and his friend gets to point at the modern manifestations of western feminism and say "This is what it leads too", and... And that's the end of that, and the millions of conversations like that.
    And later the friend recounts the conversation to his wife, who chides him for being backward and shares her own regrets at having a limited education. Then his daughter asks about further schooling, and he sees something on the news, meets another friend over coffee, and eventually even he starts to rethink his position. This is how it works: one conversation, one chance remark, one friendship, one family at a time.

    It is easy to use the severity of problems overseas to justify neglecting problems of lesser degree at home. If I did that, I wouldn't bother donating to my local food pantry, since hunger is clearly a much greater problem in nations outside the U.S. It doesn't have to be either/or, however. The local impact is usually easy, but we can and must do both.
    A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
    A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door, and a word that shall echo for evermore!
    For, borne on the night-wind of the Past, through all our history, to the last,
    In the hour of darkness and peril and need, the people will waken and listen to hear

    -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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  8. #1388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And later the friend recounts the conversation to his wife, who chides him for being backward and shares her own regrets at having a limited education. Then his daughter asks about further schooling, and he sees something on the news, meets another friend over coffee, and eventually even he starts to rethink his position. This is how it works: one conversation, one chance remark, one friendship, one family at a time.
    Oh so that's what happened? Congratulations on your newly found majority support in giving you access to higher education women of the middle east! I guess I wasn't caught up on the news...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is easy to use the severity of problems overseas to justify neglecting problems of lesser degree at home. If I did that, I wouldn't bother donating to my local food pantry, since hunger is clearly a much greater problem in nations outside the U.S. It doesn't have to be either/or, however. The local impact is usually easy, but we can and must do both.
    If you can justify what you do locally based on local problems, sure. I specifically spoke about justifying what you do locally based on the problems overseas when the actual impact of one over the later is probably somewhere between non existent to outright counter productive (This exemplifies the trend I am talking about rather transparently - transparent enough for most of the comment section to go at it).

  9. #1389
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Oh so that's what happened? Congratulations on your newly found majority support in giving you access to higher education women of the middle east! I guess I wasn't caught up on the news...
    Well, women have outnumbered men among university students in Iran for over a decade. That's old news. I think they are in the lead among middle eastern nations, with the others behind to one degree or another. Interestingly the number of women at university increased after the clerical revolution, when traditional (backwards?) rural familes felt more comfortable sending their girls to uni in the more conservative environment. In any case, you don't have to go to the middle east to find men (or women) who think girls don't need much education. I still run across people in the US with that mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    If you can justify what you do locally based on local problems, sure. I specifically spoke about justifying what you do locally based on the problems overseas when the actual impact of one over the later is probably somewhere between non existent to outright counter productive (This exemplifies the trend I am talking about rather transparently - transparent enough for most of the comment section to go at it).
    Neither justifies the other. The point is recognizing the common problem, whether it be sexism, poverty, hunger, illiteracy, child labor, or anything else, and addressing it however you personally can make the most impact.
    A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
    A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door, and a word that shall echo for evermore!
    For, borne on the night-wind of the Past, through all our history, to the last,
    In the hour of darkness and peril and need, the people will waken and listen to hear

    -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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    Dalai Llama Array Xann's Avatar
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