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  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    I designed a sexual consent form, for both parties to complete before engaging in the act. Would anyone like to see it?
    no
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  2. #1282
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    What you said about the man deciding not to have sex is an important part. Is it not that stage (and not afterwards) where a man can decline paternity?
    I've already answered that question. You're just repeating your argument, without addressing my points. To repeat, as matters now stand, women have the right to fool around all they want, with a guarantee that they won't accidentally become a mother. Men don't. I'm not saying that men "should" have the right to fool around all they want without consequences. I'm just pointing out a rather glaring asymmetry in legal rights.

    There are two questions to be resolved:
    1) Whether the asymmetry should be addressed?
    2) If so, how might the asymmetry be addressed?

    If your answer to (1) is "no", then there is nothing more to discuss. Not because it is an invalid point, but because everyone here is aware of that point already, and those who are unpersuaded by it will remain unpersuaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Some people here (mostly men) are quick to point out that men and women are different in an attempt to justify placing limitations of some kind on women. When those very real differences argue for according women a specific right that simply cannot be given to men due to anatomical differences, the shoe is on the other foot.
    Indeed. And when the shoe is on the other foot, you are just as inclined to deny men equal rights as men were inclined to deny women equal rights prior to feminism. I already posted one of several possible resolutions that would result in equal rights while fully acknowledging the woman's right to choose whether to carry the child to term, but that discussion clearly doesn't interest you, thus my reply to Luke O applies to you as well. If your answer to (1) is "no", there is nothing to further for you to discuss on the topic of this thread.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #1283
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I don't know if I really want to get into this discussion but I guess I'm going to.

    And perhaps this has already been mentioned but in terms of the asymmetry of the laws surrounding child support/abortion/etc. It isn't as though two people with equal risks are engaging in the sexual activity. Women have much more at risk with intercourse bc they are the people who have to carry the baby and breastfeed it etc. There is no guarantee a woman won't become a mother. Even though there's abortion legal to some extent in all states, there is typically only a short window of time where it would be legal. There are often many obstacles, a woman may have mixed feelings about ending the pregnancy or may not realize she is pregnant until the window passes (especially a young woman whose cycle is not regular to begin with anyway) or not have access to a provider who can perform that service, and many other things. There is no guarantee.

    I don't know how that would have to play out to be equitable or fair in a legal sense while taking into account that biological asymmetry, but I think it's a point that needs to be acknowledged.

    Maybe there will never be a solution that seems "fair" to everyone, because life isn't fair
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.
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  4. #1284
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    I designed a sexual consent form, for both parties to complete before engaging in the act. Would anyone like to see it?
    I have one already...my marriage certificate.

  5. #1285
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've already answered that question. You're just repeating your argument, without addressing my points. To repeat, as matters now stand, women have the right to fool around all they want, with a guarantee that they won't accidentally become a mother. Men don't. I'm not saying that men "should" have the right to fool around all they want without consequences. I'm just pointing out a rather glaring asymmetry in legal rights.

    There are two questions to be resolved:
    1) Whether the asymmetry should be addressed?
    2) If so, how might the asymmetry be addressed?

    If your answer to (1) is "no", then there is nothing more to discuss. Not because it is an invalid point, but because everyone here is aware of that point already, and those who are unpersuaded by it will remain unpersuaded.
    Is the right terminology not asymmetry, but fairness? In answer to your questions though, yes there is asymmetry (in terms of fairness), yes it should be addressed, but no, not in the way the Men's Rights camp envision it.

    I don't share your opinion that women currently have the right to fool around as they will. Yes, there are contraceptive methods, none of which are 100% safe, some of which are detrimental to the health of women (the pill, the mini pill, implants, IUDs and emergency contraception). Abortions are not a pleasant experience either, not just on the physical level, but also psychologically. And none of these methods are available through legal channels worldwide. This is the unarguable truth. Men, on the other hand have condoms, but they can just as well say "It's alright, you're on the pill, aren't you?" or other coercive methods, fuck her and run. If she was drunk, the man doesn't get the blame.

    If I were to explore the matter in a legal environment, in cases where the father is successfully tracked down, of course he will say he didn't consent to getting her pregnant, and would try to evade responsibility in any way possible, hiding assets, feigning poverty and the like. That is, of course, if he can be found. I don't have numbers available, but I do know that the numbers of single mothers who after all this, have to survive alone vastly outnumber the numbers of single dads in the same position. That is an asymmetry, would you agree?

  6. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I don't know if I really want to get into this discussion but I guess I'm going to.

    And perhaps this has already been mentioned but in terms of the asymmetry of the laws surrounding child support/abortion/etc. It isn't as though two people with equal risks are engaging in the sexual activity. Women have much more at risk with intercourse bc they are the people who have to carry the baby and breastfeed it etc. There is no guarantee a woman won't become a mother. Even though there's abortion legal to some extent in all states, there is typically only a short window of time where it would be legal. There are often many obstacles, a woman may have mixed feelings about ending the pregnancy or may not realize she is pregnant until the window passes (especially a young woman whose cycle is not regular to begin with anyway) or not have access to a provider who can perform that service, and many other things. There is no guarantee.

    I don't know how that would have to play out to be equitable or fair in a legal sense while taking into account that biological asymmetry, but I think it's a point that needs to be acknowledged.

    Maybe there will never be a solution that seems "fair" to everyone, because life isn't fair
    I think fairness in a pure logical sense would imply shared parenting roles, more child custody to the father and the man having somewhat of a say in abortion, since it is his baby as well. To have an abortion past 6-7 month mark is simply wrong, that's a full grown baby in there and I personally don't agree with it. Dr. Anthony Levatino explains is experience with performing abortions.

  7. #1287
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    If there were no other contentions could it not be possible for a father to waver his right to be involved in his unborn childs life due to not wanting to be a father... within the first 6/8 weeks of pregnancy?

    Of course this would require and depend on cooperation from both parents ....and probably hold a whole heap of other cans to be opened up at a later date. But presuming both parties are of adult age and consenting to the legal order.

    I think we are pretty close to some high tech contraceptives that will soon be able to turn on and off fertility which may contribute to alleviating some peoples woes on this matter. I wonder if there will be something similar for men.... a remote controlled sperm zapper?

    New High-Tech Contraception Will Deliver Birth Control On Demand For Up To 16 Years | ThinkProgress
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"
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  8. #1288
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    She made the choice to have the child, he didn't, and in the example above specifically advocated not too. You've previously said you identify as a feminist because you believe men and women should be equally responsible... You didn't specify they should be equally responsible and liable for women's life choices in regards to their own lives and the lives of others as apposed to equally responsible for their own choices.
    No. At the point of the decision to have sex, neither one wanted a child. After they were confronted with an unintended pregnancy, something neither of them chose, they then had different responses to it. It is like an accident which they both had equal part in causing, but since the woman took the physical impact, she gets to decide on the medical treatment she wants, but he has to pay half of the cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Sure, most medical expenses are towards the golden years, women live longer and have more of them, let's deal with women's taxation towards medical welfare for the elderly separately from men's. But if we do cover for both, well then - the difference between how much men & women eat on average is quite substantial - if we are covering together for the differences in the price it takes to hold people alive, then the government should finance male-only discounts, or at least food stamps for the poor.


    Almost any issue can be reframed to be dependent on external variables that will make it work to benefit one group more then another, you can even find this done in American anti drug laws prosecuting drug usage common to black drug culture in america more then drugs common to white drug culture. Those are artificial dependencies they are not inherit to the issue itself but a way to reframe the issue in a way that focuses on one impact over another. Even for your example - We could deal with the issue of sperm donations alongside surrogacy as a general factor of human rights or we can frame each by their respective means of production as it's own separate issue, and we unfortunately tend to do the later, ranging from not allowing one (Surrogacy) but allowing the other (Sperm donation) all the way to Allowing both but enabling one to reclaim parental rights but not the other (Both cases exist depending on state).
    Many issues probably can be framed in the ways you suggest, and I'm all for the broadest interpretations of rights and responsibilities. The few that cannot are those that speak to physiological differences that are not simply statistical, but almost absolute. A man will never be in a position of having an abortion, or giving birth (barring those few transmen who retain female anatomy.) Moreover, the greater longevity of women is more than balanced out by the greater tendency of men to have long-term and costly diseases (e.g. heart disease), and to indulge in riskier behavior resulting in more injuries. It tends to balance out in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Measuring how much sources of arguments or information "get it" by whether they end up reaching the same conclusion you've had prior to having to consider new information or arguments instead of doing so based on the merit of their arguments or whether they address the "it" you are thinking of certainly helps explain and clarify how you are capable of feeling entitled to the "informed" opinions you've expressed here.... Mostly by continuously arguing with people who'll spend anywhere between minutes to a couple of hours of research ignoring it and then contradicting it later.
    People demonstrate that they "get something" not by agreeing with a conclusion, but by showing they understand the facts of the matter and the cause-and-effect links involved. If they have different values, they may very well reach a different conclusion, notwithstanding agreement on the objective aspects of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've already answered that question. You're just repeating your argument, without addressing my points. To repeat, as matters now stand, women have the right to fool around all they want, with a guarantee that they won't accidentally become a mother. Men don't. I'm not saying that men "should" have the right to fool around all they want without consequences. I'm just pointing out a rather glaring asymmetry in legal rights.

    There are two questions to be resolved:
    1) Whether the asymmetry should be addressed?
    2) If so, how might the asymmetry be addressed?
    The legal assymetry reflects biological assymetry. Before you can address the first, you must address the second.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Indeed. And when the shoe is on the other foot, you are just as inclined to deny men equal rights as men were inclined to deny women equal rights prior to feminism. I already posted one of several possible resolutions that would result in equal rights while fully acknowledging the woman's right to choose whether to carry the child to term, but that discussion clearly doesn't interest you, thus my reply to Luke O applies to you as well. If your answer to (1) is "no", there is nothing to further for you to discuss on the topic of this thread.
    Ideally couples in this situation will work things out between them to their mutual satisfaction. Your solution is a good compromise and I'm sure would make sense in many cases, but should not become the law or be imposed by force (especially in a climate where abortion rights are increasingly limited, but that is another discussion). There was no biological reason for women and men to have different rights regarding property ownership, voting, education, employment, etc. as happened in previous generations. Even today, though, men and women have small differences in "rights" under most insurance plans, when it comes to what is covered, strictly due to differences in biology. I don't see men demanding pap tests and mammograms in the interests of equal treatment, for obvious reasons.

    @gromit's comments are very well-taken, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Is the right terminology not asymmetry, but fairness? In answer to your questions though, yes there is asymmetry (in terms of fairness), yes it should be addressed, but no, not in the way the Men's Rights camp envision it.

    I don't share your opinion that women currently have the right to fool around as they will. Yes, there are contraceptive methods, none of which are 100% safe, some of which are detrimental to the health of women (the pill, the mini pill, implants, IUDs and emergency contraception). Abortions are not a pleasant experience either, not just on the physical level, but also psychologically. And none of these methods are available through legal channels worldwide. This is the unarguable truth. Men, on the other hand have condoms, but they can just as well say "It's alright, you're on the pill, aren't you?" or other coercive methods, fuck her and run. If she was drunk, the man doesn't get the blame.

    If I were to explore the matter in a legal environment, in cases where the father is successfully tracked down, of course he will say he didn't consent to getting her pregnant, and would try to evade responsibility in any way possible, hiding assets, feigning poverty and the like. That is, of course, if he can be found. I don't have numbers available, but I do know that the numbers of single mothers who after all this, have to survive alone vastly outnumber the numbers of single dads in the same position. That is an asymmetry, would you agree?
    Both asymmetry and fairness apply to the discussion: the first because male and female functions in reproduction are different; the second because treating people fairly is not always treating them the same.

    I think more women would be willing to take uumlau's suggestion (absolve the father of all responsibility and raise the child themselves) if the lot of single mothers were not so difficult. A woman with a good job/salary/benefits, good housing, and a reasonable network of family and friends might be much more comfortable with this option. It's a bit like abortion, ironically. We reduce the need for less preferred solutions by making it easier for people to exercise the more preferred ones.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 06-06-2015 at 08:51 PM.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  9. #1289
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    The whole oppressor/oppressed thing works until you become the powerful one.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
    - Edmund Burke

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    ציפור Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The whole oppressor/oppressed thing works until you become the powerful one.
    You don't think women are oppressed? Men have held power for thousands of years. You don't think it's time to give women a chance?
    I looked out this morning and the sun was gone
    Turned on some music to start my day
    I lost myself in a familiar song
    I closed my eyes and I slipped away


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