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  1. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Feminism as a movement is largely about women's issues, which is why it's called feminism. I don't object to the existence of feminist movement and think it's necessary
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    The male equivalent to feminism isn't really a male equivalent at all.

    Would you say a male equivalent that actually functions as one is necessary too?

  2. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Would you say a male equivalent that actually functions as one is necessary too?
    Yes, but I don't think the will or demand for it among men is strong enough. That might change at some point. I think politically, this isn't the right moment. The calculus doesn't add up right. It's too new and strange to really catch on with men or women, but who can say what will happen ten years from now?
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  3. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Yes, but I don't think the will or demand for it among men is strong enough. That might change at some point. I think politically, this isn't the right moment. The calculus doesn't add up right. It's too new and strange to really catch on with men or women, but who can say what will happen ten years from now?
    The MRM attempt too - and it's largely pessimistic:
    Some of the research backing it up was linked earlier, but the core notion is that both men and women generally care more about women, perhaps culturally, quite possibly instinctively.

  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    The MRM attempt too - and it's largely pessimistic:
    Some of the research backing it up was linked earlier, but the core notion is that both men and women generally care more about women, perhaps culturally, quite possibly instinctively.
    I think all this research tells you is the way things are now, not the way things are destined to be. Literature from earlier ages of history causes me to doubt that this is instinctively the case; women are often hardly even present. Granted, there's a lot of problems with that, but it makes me doubt how much the findings of that research would represent the default state of affairs. You'd think women would feature more prominently in older literature if the phenomenon you mention is truly instinctive.
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  5. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    I think all this research tells you is the way things are now, not the way things are destined to be. Literature from earlier ages of history causes me to doubt that this is instinctively the case; women are often hardly even present. Granted, there's a lot of problems with that, but it makes me doubt how much the findings of that research would represent the default state of affairs. You'd think women would feature more prominently in older literature if the phenomenon you mention is truly instinctive.
    Not necessarily, for the same reason we don't see that many stories of children as historical figures throughout history - it's the way in which the complaints of both sides fit quite nicely on the same coin - women getting "Treated like children" is probably the most apt analogy to describe it's coin for both its sides. Just like children, their lives and well being are more valuable, defending them is viewed as basic morality, positive traits are super imposed onto them regardless of agency and responsibility is generally stripped away from them, but just the same, as with children, they also lost a great deal of personal agency, and got coddled from opportunities to prove themselves in any way that would put them above the rest for their actions, while written history is mostly centered almost exclusively around heroes and leaders.

  6. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Not necessarily, for the same reason we don't see that many stories of children as historical figures throughout history - it's the way in which the complaints of both sides fit quite nicely on the same coin - women getting "Treated like children" is probably the most apt analogy to describe it's coin for both its sides. Just like children, their lives and well being are more valuable, defending them is viewed as basic morality, positive traits are super imposed onto them regardless of agency and responsibility is generally stripped away from them, but just the same, as with children, they also lost a great deal of personal agency, and got coddled from opportunities to prove themselves in any way that would put them above the rest for their actions, while written history is mostly centered almost exclusively around heroes and leaders.
    I'm not talking about history. I'm talking about literature from as far back as the Iliad to as recently as Lord of the Rings. The male friendships (and animosities) predominate. Romantic relationships are barely mentioned, if at all. I'm not holding it up as an ideal without problems; I'm just saying that contemporary American mores about the way men relate to each other aren't the way it's always been.
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  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    I'm not talking about history. I'm talking about literature from as far back as the Iliad to as recently as Lord of the Rings. The male friendships (and animosities) predominate. Romantic relationships are barely mentioned, if at all. I'm not holding it up as an ideal without problems; I'm just saying that contemporary American mores about the way men relate to each other aren't the way it's always been.
    That in itself doesn't really provide much of a contrast between how things were and are now, most modern movies fail the Bachdel test as much as the Illiad would (It is more interesting now though, since many of the authors and script writers today are women).

  8. #1268

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    Two consenting adults engage in protected sex, and the woman still ends up becoming pregnant. Given her choice to opt for abortion, to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, she refuses, but the man wants an abortion. The woman, not only refuses abortion, but also refuses to give the baby up for adoption, which was another choice the man had wanted to make. Thus, instead, the woman chooses to have and raise the child. Should the man be responsible for providing financial support? If so, why? If not, why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Two consenting adults engage in protected sex, and the female still ends up becoming pregnant. Given her choice to opt for abortion, to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, she refuses, but the male wants an abortion. The female, not only refuses abortion, but also refuses to give the baby up for adoption, which was another choice the male had wanted to make. Thus, instead, the woman chooses to have and raise the child. Should the male be responsible for providing financial support? If so, why? If not, why?
    The male should not be responsible for providing financial support. The sex was protected, so it wasn't as though the man acted recklessly. I realize that the man cannot make the choice for the woman, but if the woman chooses to keep that baby vs. giving it up for adoption or getting an abortion, that's on her.

    Furthermore, I have heard stories about "entrapment." I don't know how accurate or common such incidents are; but it's not inconceivable that such a thing could have happened in this scenario.
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  10. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Two consenting adults engage in protected sex, and the woman still ends up becoming pregnant. Given her choice to opt for abortion, to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, she refuses, but the man wants an abortion. The woman, not only refuses abortion, but also refuses to give the baby up for adoption, which was another choice the man had wanted to make. Thus, instead, the woman chooses to have and raise the child. Should the man be responsible for providing financial support? If so, why? If not, why?
    No method is 100% safe and many, many people do not realise this. There is a child's life at stake and I can't place the desire for a man to do whatever the fuck he wants as more important than the quality of his child's life. A good man would sacrifice part of his freedom for this. If a grown man cannot be responsible for his actions, who will?
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