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  1. #1251
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    solution anyone?

    FREE BIRTH CONTROL FOR EVERYONE!!!!!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  2. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is you who are missing the point here, namely that only women undergo pregnancy, childbirth, and abortion. This is a very specific issue, related to but distinct from the broader issues of parental responsibility. You might as well criticise medical groups that promote pap smears for women because they are not tackling the issue of cancer screening or preventive checkups as they apply more broadly to the entire population.

    The choice of whether you want to become a parent happens, for both men and women, at the moment they have sex. Either they want, or at least are willing possibly to become a parent, or they take measures to prevent it. Assuming both choose not to conceive, any conception that follows is unintentional, a result of error or faulty birth control. This error lands disproportionately on women due simply to human biology. Legally, both mother and father have obligations to the child. Only the mother, however, is impacted in her physical body. Whether she chooses to bear the child and keep it, bear it and put it up for adoption, or have an abortion, her body is involved, and only she can decide what is best.
    Funny you should bring up pep smears - because the disporportionate financing of medical issues that effect women over medical issues that effect men or even both genders are also a large point for the MRM's movement...

    But back to topic, you are moving against me in a circle: I have explained how they use the very specific cross section of body ownership & reproduction control to limit the discussion of both to women's rights over their own lives without truly advocating either principles in any sense beyond that, nd now you've responded by telling me I am missing the point as that limited cross section of body ownership & reproduction control applies only to women's rights over their own lives. Which would require me to miss the very basis I built my argument on... Would have been very difficult for me to think of it if I did, how odd that my mind could do such things...

    Is this a conscious decision on your part? It has very little value for the discussion, conveys no new information and at best would force me to reiterate so that I can go along and move in circles around the issue with you. What is the value of preventing further progress in the discussion?

  3. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    solution anyone?

    FREE BIRTH CONTROL FOR EVERYONE!!!!!
    Male birth control needs to hit the market.

  4. #1254
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Male birth control needs to hit the market.
    so, so much... I've been a supporter of that for years

    of course men also need to get over their fear of being snipped... it's not being neutered for goodness sake! I know a lot of men who are completely supportive of their women getting their tubes tied or taking hormonal birth control, but wince at the mention of the word vasectomy...

    which pretty much boils down to men needing to be taught that there's more ways that THEY can not reproduce than condoms alone... and the more options that guys know exist, the more they can start requesting them from the doctor's offices... demand tends to create supply
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so, so much... I've been a supporter of that for years
    Last I looked, fertility in the U.S. was below replacement, even with immigration. Thus there is no need for the government to fund a male pill. If men want to pay for it they can, but I have the same view on this as I do with female birth control. It is developing countries, particularly in Africa, that we should be gifting free birth control to.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    of course men also need to get over their fear of being snipped... it's not being neutered for goodness sake! I know a lot of men who are completely supportive of their women getting their tubes tied or taking hormonal birth control, but wince at the mention of the word vasectomy...

    which pretty much boils down to men needing to be taught that there's more ways that THEY can not reproduce than condoms alone... and the more options that guys know exist, the more they can start requesting them from the doctor's offices... demand tends to create supply
    For a start, vasectomies are not 100% reversible, so it makes sense for a man considering one to be cautious and consider the alternatives. A vasectomy can mean your fertility is permanently compromised. What if a man divorced by his wife finds a new partner, wants to start a family with them...and then finds he can't? Women don't have this conundrum because they are fertile for a small window in their natural lives. Men can, at least in theory, reproduce until the day they die.

    I don't expect a woman to understand this, but a man's identity is tied up with his ability to sire a child (i.e. "spread his seed"). The desire to be potent is embedded in the male psyche for obvious evolutionary reasons - before the invention of monogamy and organised religion, men had to compete intensely for mates in a way that women have never had to. So we are unlikely to take up "options" that would compromise our sense of virility.

    You seem to believe the common myth that women can change men. Good luck...

  6. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so, so much... I've been a supporter of that for years

    of course men also need to get over their fear of being snipped... it's not being neutered for goodness sake! I know a lot of men who are completely supportive of their women getting their tubes tied or taking hormonal birth control, but wince at the mention of the word vasectomy...

    which pretty much boils down to men needing to be taught that there's more ways that THEY can not reproduce than condoms alone... and the more options that guys know exist, the more they can start requesting them from the doctor's offices... demand tends to create supply
    The difference between a women getting her tubes tied and a man getting a vasectomy is that women eventually end up going through menopause so their reproductive abilities diminish over time. For a man he can reproduce until he's dead. I support male birth control because it gives males the ability to not have a child if they choose not to.

  7. #1257
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Funny you should bring up pep smears - because the disporportionate financing of medical issues that effect women over medical issues that effect men or even both genders are also a large point for the MRM's movement...

    But back to topic, you are moving against me in a circle: I have explained how they use the very specific cross section of body ownership & reproduction control to limit the discussion of both to women's rights over their own lives without truly advocating either principles in any sense beyond that, nd now you've responded by telling me I am missing the point as that limited cross section of body ownership & reproduction control applies only to women's rights over their own lives. Which would require me to miss the very basis I built my argument on... Would have been very difficult for me to think of it if I did, how odd that my mind could do such things...

    Is this a conscious decision on your part? It has very little value for the discussion, conveys no new information and at best would force me to reiterate so that I can go along and move in circles around the issue with you. What is the value of preventing further progress in the discussion?
    You objected to the idea of pro-choice groups targeting abortion rights as a specific issue. I don't see the existence of such groups as saying anything about broader issues of personal autonomy. Do you see no room for groups advocating things that really do apply only to women? Should we also do away with prostate cancer groups since they apply only to men, and to a very narrow slice of the health care spectrum?

    I have no information about present financing of medical issues relating to men vs. women. I do know that for decades - really generations - men were considered the norm, and nearly all medical research used male subjects and focused on symptoms and outcomes in men. Only in my lifetime have scientists started to investigate and document the sometimes very different reactions women have, e.g. in how a heart attack manifests. If more money has been spent on medical research focused on women as of late, perhaps it is just to correct these mistaken assumptions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You objected to the idea of pro-choice groups targeting abortion rights as a specific issue. I don't see the existence of such groups as saying anything about broader issues of personal autonomy. Do you see no room for groups advocating things that really do apply only to women?
    Sure, and perhaps instead of illegalizing murder we should deal with the legality of impacting the bloodflow to a penis, would that be ok with you? Any other issues you'd rather deal with one gender at a time? Stealing perhaps? Increases or decreases in taxes? Should we have looked at lesbian and gay marriage each as it's own issue? If people care about our ability to choose whether we want to be parents or not beyond the choice of sex, there is absolutely no reason other then sexism to do it one sex at a time.

  9. #1259
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Feminism as a movement is largely about women's issues, which is why it's called feminism. I don't object to the existence of feminist movement and think it's necessary, even if I disagree with specific recent trends of which I shall not speak.

    The male equivalent to feminism isn't really a male equivalent at all. It's largely reactionary, populated by people who are afraid of change. I think that's because on the whole, American men are more afraid of change than American women. I think the reactionary nature of men's right's activism has more to do with men and common male attitudes rather than anything specific feminists have done.

    I do not, however, automatically assume that anyone identifying themselves as a feminist is necessarily in the right. In particular, I take issues with some of the beliefs of American feminists on the far left of the spectrum that seem to have a rather authoritarian bent to them, regardless of whatever fuzzy label they might dress it up as. I think it's possible for me to think some feminists are full of shit without dismissing the movement as a whole.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  10. #1260
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I don't expect a woman to understand this, but a man's identity is tied up with his ability to sire a child (i.e. "spread his seed").
    I think I will start collecting your cute truisms for posterity.

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