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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #1221
    Super Ape Array Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Weird. Charlize Theron is a great actress, but that just goes to show how blinding ideology can be. Maybe Aaron Clary and Anita Sarkeesian should spend some time on a deserted island together, given the absurdity of both of their causes. That might make for some interesting reality TV, far more interesting than anything either of them have ever written.

    That said, I've never seen the original Mad Max movies and this one doesn't interest me, either.
    Give them a couple of volleyballs so they have someone to talk to...

    I've seen the first and third Mad Max films, but it's been so long since I have that I can't remember much about them. Something about Tina Turner and fighting.

    Maybe Aaron Clarey once watched Tank Girl and was unhappy that a post-apocalyptic Australia didn't focus on the men/kangaroo men enough.

  2. #1222
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    The situation you've outlined was one when it was the case before they divorced, that condition remains intact with the word "maintain".
    Maintain as a default, to be overridden when there is good cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    That I did dismiss - You are saying we aren't "ready yet" for something as simple as a shared physical custody to be the assumed default unless there's a reason not too, yet your suggestion of a divorce settlement that changes over time requires that we'd either be ready to revolutionize how court rulings work in general or find a way to make humans would be willing to rethink and compromise a situation that they have all the power in and have no interest reason or benefit in doing so. The formula here is that we aren't ready to do a 100% of X for a 100% of it's cost so let's do 30% of X for 300% of it's cost (With X a measure of fairness and the cost a measure of required social change).

    Again your ignoring the fact "for some period of time" is until the child's a legal adult or that the only requirement to be in that situation to begin with isn't the consent of the other parent its simply not having a job.
    I see no reason why a divorce settlement should not change over time, since the needs of children and (hopefully) the earning capacity of displaced homemakers will also change. I'm sure husbands prefer not to pay alimony and extra child support longer than necessary. And the "period of time" would often be until small children start full-time school and are already making a break from spending all day with a single caretaker, assuming that is how the family was originally set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    The argument that "They made their bed and they are going to have to lie in it" holds for any unfair deal that disadvantages people, regardless if it's marriage or employment or education or a bad contract with a credit card company - we still provide regulations that try to tackle those disadvantages.
    It often does. In fact, this is part of the argument of affirmative action. Do we correct racial inequities in employment and higher education by implementing quotas that will reach parity in a few years, or do we make fundamental changes across society that will prepare more minority children and youth to be able to earn those jobs and university spots on their own merits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    If your definition of deadbeat dads extends to include those who'd join me in agreeing that they should take an equal share of the parenting then agreeing with you requires a traditionalist mindset that assumes specific gender roles and condemns men for breaking them by taking more time for caregiving. If it doesn't then it's inclusion is just a poor attempt to paint the resistance to a forced traditionalist marriage as agreeing or protecting with deadbeat dads which demonstrates a poor and somewhat desperate debate tactic to defend a position that can't be ethically or rationally defended.
    I already specified what I meant by "Deadbeat dads". Asking for answers that have already been given and shifting the discussion to debating tactics are signs that one doesn't have a sound argument. [/end discussion of debating tactics]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Again the argument that whether it's a rotten deal doesn't matter because they had to consent to a rotten deal to begin with... Which is technically true and yet I have a hard time imagining many feminists willing to defend that principle if it was applied to virtually anything else over the course of the last century - "That's just company policy, it was your choice to join that company". The only reason for this exception to the rule is because among the few social cases of consenting agreements it's an exception to where the advantages was in the first place, again demonstrating that it's not about fair treatment to women but about interest of women regardless of fairness, showing us again how the dictionary definition of feminism isn't the drive behind the movement but a very selectively applied excuse, reinforcing that anyone who is genuinely against gender discrimination should be apposed to the feminist movement in it's modern incarnation.
    I can't even parse this paragraph. It doesn't seem to address any of the quote preceding it. Anyone interested in feminism and eliminating gender bias should support the economic self-sufficiency of women. Then many of the problems involving custody and finances in a divorce go away. Of course financially independent women may be pickier about the men they choose to form families with, and unwilling to tolerate traditional divisions of labor. Best for these issues to come out at the outset, though, before a couple has combined their finances and had children.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #1223
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    Sorry @Coriolis - I am out. All you are doing in arguing against shared custody is exactly what feminist organizations has done and exactly the reason I or anyone who genuinely believed in gender equality as an end in itself instead of using it as a thin veil for a gender's self interest could never agree. Unfortunately the MRA doesn't seem to be much better, and the MGTOWs recognize the problem but their idea of organizing is protesting with their balls tied. For all practical concerns, all this thread and related investigations show is that gender equality has no real political advocacy.

    Anyone who knows of a movement that is actually working for all equal opportunity and responsibility under the law regardless of gender, and not as an argumentative veil only worked towards in practice for the rare occasion when it's convenient, I'll consider it.

  4. #1224
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Anyone who knows of a movement that is actually working for all equal opportunity and responsibility under the law regardless of gender, and not as an argumentative veil only worked towards in practice for the rare occasion when it's convenient, I'll consider it.
    You will probably never find an organization, much less a "movement" (whatever that is supposed to mean) with which you agree 100%. Start by embodying your ideals in your own life, and being the example of the equal opportunity and responsibility you say you support. Counter every day gender bias with every day responses. If you want to act on a broader stage, you can find the group that is most aligned with your values, and support them. It won't be a perfect fit, though.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Sorry @Coriolis - I am out. All you are doing in arguing against shared custody is exactly what feminist organizations has done and exactly the reason I or anyone who genuinely believed in gender equality as an end in itself instead of using it as a thin veil for a gender's self interest could never agree. Unfortunately the MRA doesn't seem to be much better, and the MGTOWs recognize the problem but their idea of organizing is protesting with their balls tied. For all practical concerns, all this thread and related investigations show is that gender equality has no real political advocacy.

    Anyone who knows of a movement that is actually working for all equal opportunity and responsibility under the law regardless of gender, and not as an argumentative veil only worked towards in practice for the rare occasion when it's convenient, I'll consider it.
    What exactly do you have against MRA's? they are the only group that actually pushes for some kind of gender equality and they are treated like complete shit. MGTOWs recognize that society generally doesn't have compassion towards men and advocating for equal rights is a losing battle. MGTOWs are actually protesting in the way that is congruent to male nature similar to feminism protested for women. I find when a women acts and complains her voice is generally heard however in order for a man to get a response and their voices be heard he needs to do the opposite which is to not act and participate in the system.

  6. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    What exactly do you have against MRA's?
    This:


  7. #1227
    Senior Member Array Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    I see no reason why a divorce settlement should not change over time, since the needs of children and (hopefully) the earning capacity of displaced homemakers will also change. I'm sure husbands prefer not to pay alimony and extra child support longer than necessary. And the "period of time" would often be until small children start full-time school and are already making a break from spending all day with a single caretaker, assuming that is how the family was originally set up.


    It often does. In fact, this is part of the argument of affirmative action. Do we correct racial inequities in employment and higher education by implementing quotas that will reach parity in a few years, or do we make fundamental changes across society that will prepare more minority children and youth to be able to earn those jobs and university spots on their own merits?

    I can't even parse this paragraph. It doesn't seem to address any of the quote preceding it. Anyone interested in feminism and eliminating gender bias should support the economic self-sufficiency of women. Then many of the problems involving custody and finances in a divorce go away. Of course financially independent women may be pickier about the men they choose to form families with, and unwilling to tolerate traditional divisions of labor. Best for these issues to come out at the outset, though, before a couple has combined their finances and had children.
    Nope. At least, that wouldn't work in the UK, because the school hours are *shorter* than the working day, rendering a highly paid full time job an impossibility for a single mum, unless she can afford to pay a carer. Most professional jobs over here are not time-constrained, in other words you're expected to work whatever hours the job requires.

    However much training and education you might have, being in two places at once just isn't possible. Hence many single mums choose to stay at home or work low paid part time jobs. At least then the kids are being brought up by the single parent, not by a stream of carers. And some of the women I know who are in this situation work very hard to do both jobs, while trying to get the absentee dad to pay anything at all is often one of their troubles and they often go without the agreed settlement in order to keep the peace and maintain some kind of relationship for the sake of their kids having a good relationship with the dad. That's some of my observations.


  8. #1228
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Nope. At least, that wouldn't work in the UK, because the school hours are *shorter* than the working day, rendering a highly paid full time job an impossibility for a single mum, unless she can afford to pay a carer. Most professional jobs over here are not time-constrained, in other words you're expected to work whatever hours the job requires.

    However much training and education you might have, being in two places at once just isn't possible. Hence many single mums choose to stay at home or work low paid part time jobs. At least then the kids are being brought up by the single parent, not by a stream of carers. And some of the women I know who are in this situation work very hard to do both jobs, while trying to get the absentee dad to pay anything at all is often one of their troubles and they often go without the agreed settlement in order to keep the peace and maintain some kind of relationship for the sake of their kids having a good relationship with the dad. That's some of my observations.

    School hours most places in the US are also shorter than the standard workday, so anyone taking a job within these hours is also working part time with the obvious impact on wages. There are two issues that this highlights: (1) the difficulty of anyone being a single parent; and (2) how this difficulty falls disproportionately on women. If more men sought and were granted primary or joint custody of children, more men would have this trouble as well. As for financial support, you are right that dads sometimes fail to pay their share, and whether through lax enforcement or simple desire to preserve a relationship for their children, moms are left to do their best on their own.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  9. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If more men sought and were granted primary or joint custody of children, more men would have this trouble as well.
    Men do seek it, we just aren't granted it. I wouldn't presume that custody is something many men don't seek.
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  10. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Men do seek it, we just aren't granted it. I wouldn't presume that custody is something many men don't seek.
    True joint custody (child spends ~50% of time with father) or sole custody are difficult for a father with a typical full-time work schedule. Moreso if he must travel or put in much overtime. In any case, it appears that most custody cases are settled by mutual agreement of the divorcing couple, rather than by a decision of the court. Even if courts still are biased in favor of mothers, this will affect a small portion of divorces:

    In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system. How can there be a bias toward mothers when fewer than 4 percent of custody decisions are made by the Family Court?

    What do these statistics tell us?

    1. Fathers are less involved in their children's care during the marriage.

    2. Fathers are less involved in their children's lives after divorce.

    3. Mothers gain custody because the vast majority of fathers choose to give them custody.

    4. There is no Family Court bias in favor of mothers because very few fathers seek custody during divorce.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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