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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #1171
    Raag Array Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Let's ignore that we've seen right here feminists who deny that they are radical & view themselves as mainstream expressing the belief that the position of modern women to men today is that of black slaves to white owners in pre-civil-war america and thus the claim that men might have problems in the current system is as ridicules as suggesting white people suffered as slavers all while insisting that patriarchy theory is the one holy only way to interpret history, and let's ignore that those posts were generally liked by other feminists, and that other feminists kept insisting that there is nothing radical about thinking that way. Maybe that's just an unlikely coincidence of the diversity of people typoC attracts, and maybe feminism is big enough to include entire bubbles of radicals who never get tapped on the shoulder by the mainstream counterparts and told "Hey, this is a little extreme...". Let's say that the accumulation of feminist subreddits and blogs are just such a minority within a much larger population of feminists who simply do not share their radical peer's online footprint. Even if we say all that is true and indeed feminists who'd readily admit it's a gender's-interests-groups are the majority, let's say... 80%. Then we go back to what I've pointed out before: It's the other 20% that has the helm, it's they who are running the large scale political activism, they who are at the academic front of gender studies and feminists literature. This doesn't change the fact your side lost the movement, it would just mean the other side didn't win it democratically, despite frequently employing democratic elections in the selection process within such organizations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I haven't seen anyone - here or IRL - claim anything like the highlighted, unless discussing women in a place like Afghanistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Off the top of my head, post1087, post864, I remember a few others but not exactly at what points they are in the convo (1167 posts and all). It was this sort of thing that actually got me asking why aren't any of the feminists here arguing with each other when they defend feminism under very different definitions and outright contradicting points of view about what it means. Also: While I am not going back there (I've just had dinner and I have no intention of loosing it), if you are willing to take a dive into places like the TwoXChromosomes or feminspire or about half of tumblr... Be my guest.
    @Jarlaxle, I would ask that you either quote me if you are referencing a post of mine, or, refrain from it all together. Your intellectual dishonesty in representing what I meant, by failing to share the broader context of my post, is once again another example of why I discontinued to engage in this shit show.

    If you didn't understand my example, say so, but do not twist it to conclude that feminists such as myself are likening the issues currently affecting the average women in the West to that of black slaves in pre-civil war America. You sound ignorant and ridiculous, and it does nothing to prove your point. That's reaching.


    My original response to your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Looking at it now, it kind of seems like missed rex's comparing how the american feminist movement has traditionally excluded black women rights from their fight beyond lip service while expecting them to fight with them as women, meaning a group A that is more important then group B scenario, now they do the same in willing to include gender inequality issues that harm either genders while making it clear they are following a very particular narrative of blame and hold one group's issues as the ones worth representing and the other's as a debatable lip service. As long as the focus on that narrative maintains itself as a common thread within feminism, the criticism applies, and so is the barrier for "having all hands on deck".

    TL-DR: The HeForShe notion is a bit exclusive on who comes after the "For"
    (Beyond the problematic nature of portraying "she" as a damsel in distress)
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Ok, let's use Rex's example of racism.

    Do you think only black people should be advocating against issues of racism targeted towards black people? Even if the blame is on the white privileged society, and oppressive systems of power in place, that gave rise to the racism? Does following such "skewed" narrative, which is the only way to understand the root of the issues in place, mean that whites should not/could not be active participants in advocacy? Because if white people were ever to be advocates against racism, it would only be lip service? They'd be perpetuating this "damsel in distress" phenomenon? They'd only be used by black people to further their "agenda"?

    WhitesForBlacks <- if this sounds ridiculous to you, you can understand why HeForShe sounds equally ridiculous to me.

    Any other exercise in othering you want to do?

    TL;DR: The issue is not with what follows "For", the issue is there needs to be a "For" in between the groups, in the first place. Injustice is injustice. If you need to figure out which "team" you're on, and, drawing a line to set up the teams, before fighting for injustice, you're not really worried about the injustice, in the first place. That's lip service.
    Explained:

    I was addressing your point that the barrier to having "all hands on deck" (of engaging the opposite sex, men) in the feminist movement will remain as long as we use the term "feminism" because the word "female" is in there, and as evidenced in this thread, some men can't get beyond the word "female" to see the movement for what it is.

    Thus, my response was to use the example of racism, and point out that racism against blacks can and should be fought be anyone, of any race, who feels that such racism is wrong. It is not a fight that only black people can or should fight, because it is being done to them. Even white people can fight for the cause, as well. Segregating into groups by race, in order to determine whether to fight against racism - that very act of "othering" is ridiculous. Akin to men refusing to be seen as aligned with the feminist movement just because the name only highlights "women".

    How you concluded that that was evidence of my thinking that the plight of women in present-day Western society is akin to slaves, is beyond me. And begs the question about your reading comprehension. And/or your agenda.

  2. #1172
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    It's true that you didn't specify time period, @Magic Poriferan did but but he also admitted to a lesser scale. However, the point wasn't a point of scale in the first place, which you predictably seem to fail to understand:
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Do you think white people can be victims of racism? In this society, do you think the majority of discrimination, power imbalance where they're on the lower scale, is faced by black people or white? (let's pretend it's a binary, and that other races are left out of the question) Do you know what majority means? Do you think it means 'all'? Is focusing on the majority of where the issues lie, wrong? Does that automatically mean denying the issues of the minority?
    Do you at the very least have the intellectual honesty to admit that the underlining assumption of your comparison is that "men complaining about gender discrimination" is the same as "White people complaining about gender discrimination"? That to the extent that minorities are the prime victims of racial discrimination, you view women as the prime victims of gender discrimination? Are you at least able to admit that the larger context of the exchange your post was made in was the justification of HeForShe which places a very clear emphasize that the victim is "She"?

    (All while demonstrating your intellectual honesty by ignoring the superficial similarity between your privileges as a women to enjoy lower incarceration rate, better treatment by authorities, lower mortality rates, higher education and having the power of majority vote, and the completely different white privileges of lower incarceration rate, better treatment by authorities, lower mortality rates, higher education and having the power of majority vote).

    Come on, here's your chance to defy the stereotype of the "intellectual honesty" usually attributed to the modern incarnation of the feminist movement.. Not by much but at least by a tiny bit, and it takes so little. Shock me.

  3. #1173
    Raag Array Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    It's true that you didn't specify time period, @Magic Poriferan did but but he also admitted to a lesser scale. However, the point wasn't a point of scale in the first place, which you predictably seem to fail to understand:


    Do you at the very least have the intellectual honesty to admit that the underlining assumption of your comparison is that "men complaining about gender discrimination" is the same as "White people complaining about gender discrimination"?
    What are you talking about? Forget honesty, I'm trying to get intellectual coherence out of your above statement.

    If that's what you got out of it, then, no, empathetically, NO, that is NOT what I meant. That above bolded statement of yours makes absolutely zero sense.

    That to the extent that minorities are the prime victims of racial discrimination, you view women as the prime victims of gender discrimination?
    This I can admit to. But to be very clear, as you seem to be needing clarity, a few clarifications:
    - it makes no commentary on which is better/worse, who had it better/worse in terms of gender issues versus race issues
    - it does not negate my acknowledgement that men can, and are, discriminated against, as well
    - acknowledging systematic discrimination (whether it be for race or gender or any other grounds) does not imply that I view the oppressed group as passive, hapless, helpless victims in need of saving by the Other/stronger/powerful. That was your patriarchal example. A distasteful one at that. Not mine.

    So below:

    Are you at least able to admit that the larger context of the exchange your post was made in was the justification of HeForShe which places a very clear emphasize that the victim is "She"?
    Another resounding NO to that ^ representation and connotation.

    (All while demonstrating your intellectual honesty by ignoring the superficial similarity between your privileges as a women to enjoy lower incarceration rate, better treatment by authorities, lower mortality rates, higher education and having the power of majority vote, and the completely different white privileges of lower incarceration rate, better treatment by authorities, lower mortality rates, higher education and having the power of majority vote).
    Seriously, what is the point you're trying to make with this?

    If your point is to try to "objectively" quantify "who has it worse", go right ahead and do that futile exercise. I will not be joining such a ridiculous endeavor.

    Do you want me to counteract with listing all the statistics where women have it worse than men? And see whose penis list is longer? Is that supposed to prove something?

    I really don't get what you're trying to achieve.

    PS - don't think I didn't notice that your above response completely failed to acknowledge your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my point, with your lumbering sidestepping of a response, while in the same breath asking for my honesty. LOL, double-standard hypocrisy.

  4. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Seriously, what is the point you're trying to make with this?
    I am just helping expend your audience - While it's clear that you need no help in demonstrating the insane level of bias required for you to agree that the attributes which suggest a privileged status for matters of race yet seemingly fail to do so when your own gender has the exact same attributes - the unfortunate reality this thread has shown is that people can be very campy about choosing when and with who to trigger critical judgement.

    If for nothing else: It's really funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That to the extent that minorities are the prime victims of racial discrimination, you view women as the prime victims of gender discrimination?
    This I can admit to.
    Thank you, and that was all that was needed for the context of "how I represent you". As I said - and yet you seem to have used your incredible point dodging powers to miss again - it was never a point of scale.

    At the unlikely chance you won't use your powers again: The accusation isn't that your narrative is necessarily disproportional about the problems women experience but that in the unilateral blame game it becomes blindly incapable of sustaining itself while in the same time giving an honest and proportional representation or acknowledgement to problems faced by men, politically or intellectually.

    But that probably won't happen...


  5. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    If your point is to try to "objectively" quantify "who has it worse", go right ahead and do that futile exercise. I will not be joining such a ridiculous endeavor.
    Why not? you feminists are masters of claiming victimhood. The Entire premise of "the patriarchy" is an argument for victimhood why not just be upfront about it now?

  6. #1176
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  7. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post

  8. #1178
    Raag Array Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post


    Thank you, and that was all that was needed for the context of "how I represent you". As I said - and yet you seem to have used your incredible point dodging powers to miss again - it was never a point of scale.

    At the unlikely chance you won't use your powers again: The accusation isn't that your narrative is necessarily disproportional about the problems women experience but that in the unilateral blame game it becomes blindly incapable of sustaining itself while in the same time giving an honest and proportional representation or acknowledgement to problems faced by men, politically or intellectually.
    No.

    You can try all you want to wrangle my point of view to something that aligns with your agenda, to prove whatever obscure point you've been trying to make, but it'll still be an intellectually dishonest representation of what I am saying or what my views are on the matter.

    But, keep going. As you were, champ, as you were. Play that one-man unilateral blame game. Show us how it's done.

  9. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Why not? you feminists are masters of claiming victimhood. The Entire premise of "the patriarchy" is an argument for victimhood why not just be upfront about it now?

    Women are systematically victimized. You can see that as a weakness, as a distaste, which says more about you, and the effect patriarchy has already had on you, than any commentary on the ones you're pointing your finger at. It doesn't negate that fact that, even being victimized, women can and often do, have agency and the power for change, and that often, the very act of being oppressed pushes women, and men, who see and experience such systematic oppression, to advocate for change.

    What I reject is your interpretation of 'claiming victimhood', and whatever sexist representation you are @Jarlaxle want to press upon us, that being victimized means claiming a whole identity of victimhood, of helplessness, of a lack of agency, of allowing it to happen.

    It's a telling echo of the same narrative that women have heard in rape cases. "Are you saying you are a victim?!!" An accusation, an insult, a statement of incredulity.

    But I won't expect you to understand the difference, as evidenced by your wonderfully intelligent, and astute contribution to this thread.

    You guys are not the first, nor the last, who will run that script. It actually validates why we need feminism, more than ever. With perspectives like yours around.

    So, thank you.

  10. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No.

    You can try all you want to wrangle my point of view to something that aligns with your agenda, to prove whatever obscure point you've been trying to make, but it'll still be an intellectually dishonest representation of what I am saying or what my views are on the matter.

    But, keep going. As you were, champ, as you were. Play that one-man unilateral blame game. Show us how it's done.
    You go girl! Stand up for what you believe in and don't let anyone tell you your beliefs might have some unfortunate implications...






    I guess you aren't the first to run that script either
    But god damn it, it would be beautiful if you were the last...

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