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  1. #1131
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I can't really participate in this thread any more. I understand what's going on, this is basically a fight for the future and we're winning. :P In honor of my bowing out, I will go to the bar this evening, order a drink with umbrella in it and hit on an androgynous woman.
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  2. #1132
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I can't really participate in this thread any more. I understand what's going on, this is basically a fight for the future and we're winning. :P In honor of my bowing out, I will go to the bar this evening, order a drink with umbrella in it and hit on an androgynous woman.
    You go girlfriend.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  3. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    This isn't a competition.
    It always has been, still is, and will continue onto the future.

    Competition is a necessity to see who can best perform a job. Why give a job to someone inferior or less qualified (in comparison)?

    The truth is that someone will always be inferior because somebody else will always be superior (it just happens that men happen to be superior).

  4. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    in the very traditional family structure I grew up in, both my brother and I experienced oppression due to gender roles. (I have two brothers and two sisters, but the rest of them are a lot younger so most of my relevant experience was with my older brother.) The strong expectation was that he would grow up to support a family financially, and I would grow up to be a mother to children in the home. That led to different freedoms and restrictions for us both.

    But you did end up having a career and finding a mostly egalitarian husband, your oppression ended. Did your brother's?


    If we are willing to attribute those liberating changes to feminism, doesn't this result speaks for itself? can you understand why some might view the track record of changes as a pretty selective one?

    And yes, some feminists do agree on the finer points with some of the more progressive MRA's. You hear it occasionally in discussions here and elsewhere, even the stereotypical tumblr-style feminist occasionally if rarely admit that "Some of those might have a point, not that it should be a high priority or anything" (Quoted from the article magic P declared as full of truth). When will that happen? after they are done fighting the patriarchy in the form of NASA scientists wearing casual t-shirts with colorful drawings of women in mini skirts? After they are done regulating the term "hit on" for representing rape culture? After they are done defending themselves from evil critiques with ironically campaigns for "Bathing in male tears" (Or "Boys are stupid throw rocks at them" a few years back, prior to the current post-ironic humor)? What does it say about the honest devotion for the cause of equality when every way in which inequality impacts your brother and husband and sons is constantly pushed back in the waiting-line to make room for a limitless supply of imaginary demons?

    But maybe you are different, maybe I am selling you short by comparing you to those stereotypes, maybe it should be a priority as far as you are concerned, "as a feminist", and maybe many others like you... Why didn't any of you move to petition NOW - one of the largest self declared feminists organizations in the US - when it moved against the shared parenting act in NY 9 years ago? And why did the feminists who's version of feminism was to go against it were the ones to get enough support to rise into influential positions - in an organization that determines that with elections btw - in the first place? Maybe you aren't very active or aren't the participating type, but are none of those who agree with you?

    Can you understand why it comes across as nothing but decades of empty lip service? Can you understand how - judging the movement by the history of it's member's actions in the real world rather then the academic dictionary definition they so rarely care to be consistent with - feminism comes across as nothing but one gender's interest group?

    And let me ask you a more important question: Should it be judged in any other way? Should eugenics be judged by it's promises to improve the human condition for all generations to come, or by the reality of what it means when entire ethnic groups and sexual orientations are deemed damaged genetic material? Isn't it fair to judge communism not merely by it's Utopian ideal but by the reality we've seen of what really happens when revolutionary governments take hold of a nation's entire means of production to be redistributed at an undeclared date that will never materialize? Should Martin Luther King have judged America for it's constitution and the rights it claims to give people, or by the reality of how selective it was for which of it's citizens it deemed to be people?

    Almost every ideology attributes to itself good intentions, and would gladly write itself in the dictionary according to those if it had the chance. But that world where everything works according to the dictionary definitions... Do any of us ever gets to live there?

  5. #1135
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    But you did end up having a career and finding a mostly egalitarian husband, your oppression ended. Did your brother's?
    Yes. His wife also went back to work after staying home for a few years, like I did, and because she worked he was able to leave a higher-paying private sector job for a less high-paying but otherwise pretty cushy county job that affords him lots of time off to take care of his kids. It's a good thing, since he needs to do all of the parenting tasks himself since his wife and the mother of his children died two years ago, when the kids were 15 and 12. So I guess you could say he's still oppressed, but now it's by grief and circumstance, not gender roles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    If we are willing to attribute those liberating changes to feminism, doesn't this result speaks for itself? can you understand why some might view the track record of changes as a pretty selective one?
    See above.

    I can't really respond to the rest of your post. I'm not a member of NOW or any other "official" feminist group. I don't claim NOW or any other organization speaks for me.

  6. #1136
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    You go girlfriend.
    I am a man, who will happen to be drinking a Shirley Temple.

  7. #1137
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    It always has been, still is, and will continue onto the future.
    You have the right to think that. However, I think that cooperation between the genders, and not competition, is what we need in order to move toward an enlightened future, and that backwards notions like the one you stated are what is holding us back from doing so.

    I'm going to follow @Qlip's example and bow out of this thread now. It's just going in circles, and I see it as mostly a waste of time. You will no doubt feel compelled to get in the last word, and you are free to do so. I leave you to it.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  8. #1138
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    It always has been, still is, and will continue onto the future.

    Competition is a necessity to see who can best perform a job. Why give a job to someone inferior or less qualified (in comparison)?

    The truth is that someone will always be inferior because somebody else will always be superior (it just happens that men happen to be superior).
    No, it isn't a competition. This is about family. There is a reason I have phrased things as "having a family" in prior posts, rather than "getting married" or "having a girlfriend" or "procreating".

    Part of the value of having a family is that you have people who are committed to each other (not just the man and wife, but parents to children, and so on), that you can rely on. In some cases, that you can rely on even if they don't really like you that much.

    You don't get that kind of commitment from competing with them. You get it by working with them in a cooperative way, pursuing mutual goals. (Goals can include enjoying hobbies and interests, not just "productive" things.)

    Seriously, if "who cleans the house" is a matter for debate, it isn't that difficult to hire a maid service while both parents work. It's pretty much the same thing as hiring day care for toddlers, though very much cheaper. If both parents make enough money, most unwelcome tasks can be outsourced.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  9. #1139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You mean for each family to decide what's important to them and split up the family work in a way that makes sense and meets the needs of all the members of that individual family? If so, then my answer is an unqualified "yes." If you mean should all moms work construction and all dads should stay home, then fuck no. That's no more nuanced or understanding of individual differences and preferences than expecting all moms to stay home and all dads to work a million hours a week at some soul-sucking job and miss huge swaths of their kids' childhoods. I'm for each family making the decisions that work for them.
    But why does a family have to split up the work why can't each member stick to a role? why is this such a huge problem? If a women decides to stay at home while a man works why do you see this as problem if that's what works for them? but when we switch the roles of a man staying at home it isn't a problem then is it if that's the choice they want to make.

  10. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    It always has been, still is, and will continue onto the future.

    Competition is a necessity to see who can best perform a job. Why give a job to someone inferior or less qualified (in comparison)?

    The truth is that someone will always be inferior because somebody else will always be superior (it just happens that men happen to be superior).
    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    You have the right to think that. However, I think that cooperation between the genders, and not competition, is what we need in order to move toward an enlightened future, and that backwards notions like the one you stated are what is holding us back from doing so.

    I'm going to follow @Qlip's example and bow out of this thread now. It's just going in circles, and I see it as mostly a waste of time. You will no doubt feel compelled to get in the last word, and you are free to do so. I leave you to it.
    Are you suggesting that something is wrong with capitalism then? If there was no such thing as competition, then capitalism would suffer because if people don’t feel compelled to compete, they may think to themselves what would be the point of working hard then. So in a way, competition sort of drives innovation and creativity.

    Perhaps one way I can see what you are saying being correct would be to give a job position to two people instead of one. So in other words, give the position of a CEO of a particular organization to one man and one woman where they can work together and they split their earnings 50% each.

    Then again, because the way a man’s brain functions differing from that of a female, it may clash and so nothing gets accomplished. We’re back to square one again.

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