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  1. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What they don't get is to expect a woman to take care of their family and house while they go off and earn money. Sure, they can want that, and many are lucky enough to find women who truly want it as well. They have no entitlement to it, though. It is simple individual preference, and must be matched up with the right partner just like any other preferences.
    They don't - in fact their perspective is almost the exact opposite, that's what the schism is about. They'd practically be able to say the exact same thing you just did from the men's perspective: "Women aren't entitled to use men as wage slaves while they get to stay at home and see the kids after school."


    Feminist against traditionalism: "I want to be financially independent (You patriarchal raping oppressor)!"
    MGTOW against traditionalism: "Go get your own job and support yourself (You gynocentric manipulative parasite)!"

    Its in it's very early days, but I can just tell: these movements are going to be the best of friends

  2. #1122
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    They don't - in fact their perspective is almost the exact opposite, that's what the schizm is about. They'd practically be able to say the exact same thing you just did from the men's perspective: "Women aren't entitled to use men as wage slaves while they get to stay at home and see the kids after school."
    I agree with this as well. I think that barring disability, every adult should be able to support him/herself and any family they might have. Put two adults together in that family, and you have built in redundancy, flexibility, and two to share the burden. I was just including both the MGTOW and the non-traditional MRA folks as representing different but equally valid lifestyles, whereas those who feel entitled to a traditional division of labor do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Its in it's very early days, but I can just tell: these movements are going to be the best of friends
    That depends on whether they value ideology over actually reaching their goals.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    I wouldn't lump "the old days" together like that: Throughout much of that time family life and work life weren't really separate environments. Most children worked in their parents professions together with their parents, mostly agriculture. That, and hunter gatherer society before that, are the systems that helped us survive.

    The "old system" I am talking about, the one I believe the traditionalists envision when they think of the 1950s or previous centuries, is the one that emerged with the industrial revolution, in which providing for the family meant spending most of your time away from your family. It has served us for a few centuries, sure. You could argue that we wouldn't have developed technologically & economically as much without it, we certainly wouldn't have had our current population without it, but I don't think it's true to say we wouldn't have survived.

    And yes, for the individuals within it, I think it was pretty horrible:
    I don't think it was good for children to grow up without having a relationship with their fathers.
    I don't think it was good for men to live their lives in the support of a family they barely get to see.
    I don't think it was good for women to not have personal agency in what they did with their lives.

    Feminism tried to fix the 3rd while neglecting the first two problems and in some ways making them worst.
    It's time we fix the first two.
    Any society that faces industrialization faces long working hours, in terms of the first wave of feminism women were the ones who got the shit end of the stick. Instead of serving their families at home the deal was to replace that and work the long hours and get put in the same shitty situation as a man did.I agree this needed to happen eventually because of the way technology was developing but women sacrificed their lives with their families in favor of serving the government. Remember that the government supported feminism and put large amounts of money into the cause because they knew that if more women entered the workforce they would have to pay taxes. Feminism never actually gave women a choice, it was a forceful ideology that shamed any women who wouldn't comply with their false ideals. Not only that but you have women's studies programs at prestigious universities teaching false information about the history of women constantly portraying them as victims of oppression what kind of positive message is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Not getting married is a phenomena, but it's largely getting replaced by cohabitation, and increasingly more and more jurisdictions call these common law relationships and treat them as much of the same thing. Most men still want relationships, or as some of the MGTOW movement would call it, "Become slaves to women's approval". The MGTOW movement on the other hand seems to be preaching getting out of relationships and dating altogether, and some go as far as giving up on sex (Including the one who made the FathersFirst video).

    Anyway, I am not really concerned about MGTOW as a lifestyle choice, or their philosophy for that matter.
    What I want to know is what they can do as a political movement in actually progressing men's rights.
    Their criticism about the MRA is relevant, but what are they going to do that the MRA didn't?
    Not getting married is the basis of what MGTOW stands for and unlike feminism that shames women into conforming to their ideals MGTOW is there to inform men not shame them for being with a women. There are actually many MGTOWs who are in relationships with women but are refusing to get married.

  4. #1124
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    And yes, for the individuals within it, I think it was pretty horrible:
    I don't think it was good for children to grow up without having a relationship with their fathers.
    I don't think it was good for men to live their lives in the support of a family they barely get to see.
    I don't think it was good for women to not have personal agency in what they did with their lives.
    I don't really want to re-enter the argument but I would like to illustrate my agreement with these three observations and my commitment as a feminist to address them all. I've mentioned before that my husband has gotten some heat at work in the past for trying to take time off to do things with our children (e.g. "can't your wife do that?"). He has held pretty firm on that (understanding that that's a privilege he has as a white collar worker who can't be easily replaced- not all workers have the luxury of being able to take a stand on their ideals). It's important to us both that we share the parenting duties pretty equally. That wasn't entirely the case when they were very little because I breastfed them both until they were about 2 years old so I was their "first string" parent for a while, and he was the breadwinner during that time, but we transitioned out of that after weaning. He did more hands-on parenting and I ramped up my employment to take some of the pressure off of him.

    It's also worth mentioning, IMO, that in the very traditional family structure I grew up in, both my brother and I experienced oppression due to gender roles. (I have two brothers and two sisters, but the rest of them are a lot younger so most of my relevant experience was with my older brother.) The strong expectation was that he would grow up to support a family financially, and I would grow up to be a mother to children in the home. That led to different freedoms and restrictions for us both. I was discouraged from actively pursuing anything career-oriented, while all of those doors were completely open to him. On the other hand, I was encouraged and allowed to study whatever appealed to me in college, however impractical it would be from a career standpoint, since the expectation was that I wouldn't need to make money. He was pressured into practical, career-oriented schooling and discouraged from studying what he truly enjoyed. Those gender roles affected us both positively and negatively. Ideally, I think each child in a family should be encouraged to follow their dreams but also have a practical plan for supporting themselves as adults. If, as adults, they negotiate a situation with their spouse where one of them stays home while the other is the breadwinner, that's a valid choice, but it shouldn't be something they HAVE to do because they CAN'T support themselves. And it shouldn't matter which gender they are when they make that decision- I know happy families where the dad is the primary at-home parent, too.

  5. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's also worth mentioning, IMO, that in the very traditional family structure I grew up in, both my brother and I experienced oppression due to gender roles. (I have two brothers and two sisters, but the rest of them are a lot younger so most of my relevant experience was with my older brother.) The strong expectation was that he would grow up to support a family financially, and I would grow up to be a mother to children in the home. That led to different freedoms and restrictions for us both. I was discouraged from actively pursuing anything career-oriented, while all of those doors were completely open to him. On the other hand, I was encouraged and allowed to study whatever appealed to me in college, however impractical it would be from a career standpoint, since the expectation was that I wouldn't need to make money. He was pressured into practical, career-oriented schooling and discouraged from studying what he truly enjoyed. Those gender roles affected us both positively and negatively. Ideally, I think each child in a family should be encouraged to follow their dreams but also have a practical plan for supporting themselves as adults. If, as adults, they negotiate a situation with their spouse where one of them stays home while the other is the breadwinner, that's a valid choice, but it shouldn't be something they HAVE to do because they CAN'T support themselves. And it shouldn't matter which gender they are when they make that decision- I know happy families where the dad is the primary at-home parent, too.
    The funny thing is males today are still expected to peruse a career that is centered on making money and raising a family, while females on the other hand are discouraged from staying at home and taking care of their children. You make the claim that your parents "oppressed" you did they beat you up for not wanting to conform to their ideals? I think it was them being concerned and pushing what they thought was right onto you and you can't really blame them for that. The man today can still be a primary at home parent but this is still highly impractical in our society since males do not share the same reproductive organs as females. Would you think it would be right for a female to work a construction job and male stay at home taking care of the kids? Since technology wasn't nearly as advanced as it is today this is the mentality of the older generation and it was very much justifiable.

  6. #1126
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    The man today can still be a primary at home parent but this is still highly impractical in our society since males do not share the same reproductive organs as females. Would you think it would be right for a female to work a construction job and male stay at home taking care of the kids?
    To the first- those aren't actually needed to parent, oddly enough. Boobies help for the first little while, as I mentioned was true in my family, but not every family breastfeeds, and there are ways to share parenting even while breastfeeding.

    To the second- of course, if the woman wanted to work a construction job and the man wanted to stay home with the kids, that would be "right" for them.

  7. #1127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To the first- those aren't actually needed to parent, oddly enough. Boobies help for the first little while, as I mentioned was true in my family, but not every family breastfeeds, and there are ways to share parenting even while breastfeeding.
    I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm saying it's impractical in a lot of ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To the second- of course, if the woman wanted to work a construction job and the man wanted to stay home with the kids, that would be "right" for them.
    So would you see this as a feasible option for an entire society to follow?

  8. #1128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Using IQ scores to prove that men are smarter than women is a weak argument, at best. IQ is not an accurate reflection of intelligence, as the human brain is too complex to be evaluated and measured by one type of test. I know people who are highly intelligent in some ways, but completely lacking in practical knowledge and common sense.

    Also, IQ doesn't explain why men seem much more likely than women to engage in unnecessarily risky behavior for bragging rights, or simply to show off.
    Men still seem to outperform women in a lot of things though even in terms of occupation or work. Truth.

  9. #1129
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Men still seem to outperform women in a lot of things though even in terms of occupation or work. Truth.
    This isn't a competition.

    Also:
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  10. #1130
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    So would you see this as a feasible option for an entire society to follow?
    You mean for each family to decide what's important to them and split up the family work in a way that makes sense and meets the needs of all the members of that individual family? If so, then my answer is an unqualified "yes." If you mean should all moms work construction and all dads should stay home, then fuck no. That's no more nuanced or understanding of individual differences and preferences than expecting all moms to stay home and all dads to work a million hours a week at some soul-sucking job and miss huge swaths of their kids' childhoods. I'm for each family making the decisions that work for them.
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