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  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Joint physical custody should be the ideal when circumstances don't argue against it.
    Can I convince you to run for Terry O’Neill's job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    being judged or excluded socially for pursuing "nerdy" subjects;
    I've actually seen that happen: Girls accusing the females among us (Nerds) that they are only interested in things such as science, technology, coding, gaming and other such topics because "They have too to get guys to like them", while in the same time spreading rumors about how they must be having sex with all their male peers - Apparently they both can't get guys to like them and can get all the guys to like them a lot in the same time.... Don't ask me how that work (I've also seen the exact same accusations hurled at women expressing disagreements with modern feminism, but I don't think I have what it takes to touch that one with a 10ft pole).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The factors listed under (3) are mostly improving, but I'm not sure even today's young women realize this. They are going to college and grad school and are entering the workforce in record numbers, but still avoiding certain fields and career paths. Some suggest this is because women actually prefer other careers and fields (the ones that "happen" to pay less). I find it hard to imagine that any subset of humanity is so monolithic as to exhibit such an innate preference. IME, it reflects that there still is the sense that "there aren't alot of women in that field; it's hard to get into; you won't be well-received" etc.

    Having been in a predominantly male academic field and profession my entire life, all I can say is there are very few barriers that aren't surmountable with a reasonable amount of effort and persistence. But then in these kinds of careers, men must put out effort to succeed as well.

    Bottom line: women can't complain about the wage gap when they are unwilling to get the same experience and background as their male colleagues, and go for the same jobs. This is what jixmixfix is right about: you can't win if you don't play, and all too often, women still just sit on the sidelines and cheer the men on.
    That makes things interesting - it touches on an issue I think we might disagree on - not the situation, but the question of how to address it.

    Regarding the cause, I'll admit right off the bat I am agnostic about it. I don't know if there's an innate predisposition, and I don't have any strong belief one way or another. If I had to make a guess, it is probably a small statistical difference in the disposition of interests made larger by the very common predispositions to identify with people according to gender & to cultivate their interests according to who they identify with, leading people to gain their interests from friends, parents, peers, famous figures & authors of their own gender, all creating a rather intricate feedback loop until it becomes embedded in the cultural associations and stereotypes, by which point you can add fictional characters to that list as well.

    I have no problem with grass root cultural efforts to counter this: If a media outlet wants to publish a yearly list of the top 100 women in science, or a kick starter wants to get young girls interested in electronic circuitry with flowers you can get to glow and play musical notes, that's fantastic, they are utilizing free speech and the free market exactly for the utilitarian purpose our liberty to do so has become a protected cultural value in the first place, the fundamental understanding that the human condition limits us from ever being certain about how things should be and applying a totalitarian answer, and so society benefits the most from giving all it's different pieces the freedom to explore different directions and experiment with different answers as long as they don't take away that freedom from each other.
    If it turns out it is cultural association in regards to femininity and masculinity and that logic circuits in flowers provided girls with a gateway drug into STEM, that's fantastic, and we will all get the benefit of what they are able discover, engineer & develop. But, if they aren't interested and it turns out to be just a small niche market, that needs to be fine too. If reality made any promises to always prove our hypothesis and beliefs correct we wouldn't need the vast majority of people in STEM to begin with. More importantly: No harm was done.

    The same can not be said about the top down approach. Believing that gender distribution should be equal so strongly that we'd hammer it in with gender quotas, attempt to censor cultural ideas that could oppress our delicate subconscious mind, and yes, even having gender-specific schooltrips in the classrooms of public schools that jixmixfix was talking about (And I suspect might be part of the RL chain of events that inspired this thread), are crossing a line with the use of enforcement. I've also explored the issue of gender requirements for scholarships, it can be rationalized, but not lightly. Almost any reasonable argument for the legitimacy of the practice can equally be used to support arbitrary gender requirements in the work place. Creating inequality in opportunity in order enforce an equality in result completely flies in the face of personal agency. In the end of the day, regardless of whether people are making their choices because of nature or nurture, it's still their choices.

  2. #1102
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The biggest problem I see with feminism (3rd wave or otherwise) is that all positive rhetoric is directed at women. Any rhetoric directed at men is almost entirely negative. "Don't be a misogynist". "Don't be a rapist".

    There are some pretty major cultural barriers to achieving gender equality that have almost nothing to do with how women are treated. Men who don't aspire to become "bread winners" are branded as losers, and while this pressure is sometimes applied by male peers, most of the pressure actually comes from women. I find it to be a disingenuous and hypocritical to say that we, as a society, want men to put forth an equal amount of effort toward raising children while also emasculating those who make choices to reach that goal. Whether young males are aware of it or not, there is a tremendous amount of pressure on them to make as much money as possible because that is the most reliable way of attracting a suitable mate. Women have a lot more agency in this "game" than they think they have.

    Anyway, I guess my point is that feminism has some serious issues with its messaging and I don't know if the label can be salvaged.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."
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  3. #1103
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Can I convince you to run for Terry O’Neill's job?
    Who is this???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    The same can not be said about the top down approach. Believing that gender distribution should be equal so strongly that we'd hammer it in with gender quotas, attempt to censor cultural ideas that could oppress our delicate subconscious mind, and yes, even having gender-specific schooltrips in the classrooms of public schools that jixmixfix was talking about (And I suspect might be part of the RL chain of events that inspired this thread), are crossing a line with the use of enforcement. I've also explored the issue of gender requirements for scholarships, it can be rationalized, but not lightly. Almost any reasonable argument for the legitimacy of the practice can equally be used to support arbitrary gender requirements in the work place. Creating inequality in opportunity in order enforce an equality in result completely flies in the face of personal agency. In the end of the day, regardless of whether people are making their choices because of nature or nurture, it's still their choices.
    I agree that people should be able to make their own choices, but see cultural conditioning and social expectations as factors that artificially limit and constrain free choice. We will not be able truly to know whether there are innate sex-based preferences until these constraints are gone, and that will be long in coming, if it ever does.

    I also agree that brute-force top-down methods won't work. We need to keep removing remaining barriers to those women (and minorities) who do decide to play, but beyond that, it may be most effective to let things develop on their own. As more women go into nontraditional fields and careers, girls and young women coming up will have more role models, more examples, and be less likely to associate those jobs so strongly with men. Then they really can make their own choice.

    Every now and then there are anomalies that bear investigating, in thoughtful and carefully targeted ways. For instance, the number of women getting undergrad and doctoral degrees in STEM fields has been steadily increasing, except in computer science. It would be worth trying to understand why this field bucks the overall trend. That understanding might suggest specific corrections that can be taken, or may reveal reasons that will resolve themselves over time, where intervention will do more harm than good.

    Interesting that you mention using flowers to engage girls in electronics as an example. I see this as stereotyping: why are girls more likely to be interested in flowers than airplanes or robots? Why aren't boys interested in flowers? How about showing girls that airplanes and robots are fun, too - and showing boys all the interesting things about flowers? As a woman in science, it really ticks me off when people feel they have to sell or present things to female audiences with the equivalent of a big pink bow on it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Honestly I'm not sure how anyone in this day and age can still be claiming that one sex is inherently superior to the other. This post is coming suspiciously close to troll-land in the nature of its claims and lack of support for them.
    Apparently, I am not the only one:


  5. #1105
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Using IQ scores to prove that men are smarter than women is a weak argument, at best. IQ is not an accurate reflection of intelligence, as the human brain is too complex to be evaluated and measured by one type of test. I know people who are highly intelligent in some ways, but completely lacking in practical knowledge and common sense.

    Also, IQ doesn't explain why men seem much more likely than women to engage in unnecessarily risky behavior for bragging rights, or simply to show off.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP

  6. #1106
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Also, IQ doesn't explain why men seem much more likely than women to engage in unnecessarily risky behavior for bragging rights, or simply to show off.
    The reason for this is obvious. Females prefer risk-taking males to risk-averse males. It's not about bragging rights, it's about sex.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #1107
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The reason for this is obvious. Females prefer risk-taking males to risk-averse males. It's not about bragging rights, it's about sex.
    Not everything is about sex. Men take unnecessary risks even when there are no women around to witness them.

    Perhaps I am an anomaly, but I prefer men who don't do shockingly stupid things to impress me.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP

  8. #1108
    Row row row your boat SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Also, IQ doesn't explain why men seem much more likely than women to engage in unnecessarily risky behavior for bragging rights, or simply to show off.
    Chiron: CofV7: Overview of Social Violence

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  9. #1109
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Not everything is about sex. Men take unnecessary risks even when there are no women around to witness them.

    Perhaps I am an anomaly, but I prefer men who don't do shockingly stupid things to impress me.
    Well you ARE an INTJ. And as a fellow INTJ I regard the stupid risks as stupid.

    But just for fun I'm going to post this. Mwhahahah!

    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #1110
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Not everything is about sex. Men take unnecessary risks even when there are no women around to witness them.
    You are correct that not everything is about sex. Sometimes the fundamental motivation is hunger (or the avoidance of it). Sometimes it's the need for rest or relaxation. But when it comes to risk-taking behavior, sex is the fundamental motivation.

    Males take unnecessary risks even when there are no women around because they are competing for higher social standing, and higher social standing improves access to females. It's still about sex. This is more obvious in other species with less complex social interaction, like when male deer fight for mating rights. Human social interaction is far more complex, but the fundamental motivations are the same.

    Perhaps I am an anomaly, but I prefer men who don't do shockingly stupid things to impress me.
    Your personal preferences are an anecdote, nothing more.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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