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  1. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Some women choose not to seek these positions, just like some men. The fact remains that those women who do seek them have a much more difficult time getting hired, and much more resistance once on the job. This can be quite a deterrent. Fortunately things are changing, and progress should build on itself as young women starting out have more role models and examples. You are right about one thing, though: women have to play to win. It may take another generation or more before the majority of young women entering the workforce were not raised to rely on a husband to support them. My generation certainly wasn't. Some of us saw through that right away. Others believed in the fairy tale only to have a rude awakening years later.
    You seriously need to do some more research and think about these issues more objectively. The majority of women choose careers that offer lower quality pay positions such as a teacher, a nurse instead of a doctor etc. Also women in general work fewer hours than men when you take their careers choices and the amount of hours they work they get paid the same wage for the same job. Women were never "raised to rely on men" there was no social construction here like most of you feminists think, women had no practical choice at the time but to rely on men because unlike today work was far more hazardous and labor intensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't know whether I should be relieved or disappointed that women are not the only demographic group about whom you have a skewed and unsupportable opinion. In any case, you still have not demonstrated the relevance of this line of thought.
    How is my opinion not supportive of blacks?

  2. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I think if the more hot-headed people in both camps would calm down and focus on results, they would realize that their agendas have much in common. Take the MRA complaint that women are given preference in child custody when couples divorce. First of all, any man who thinks child care is primarily a woman's responsibility should be fine with this. The fact that they are not suggests that they really do agree that child rearing should be shared by both parents. (Or, they view children as possessions, are controlling, are trying to use them as pawns in the divorce proceedings to get back at their wife; but let's assume the best for now.) There are also issues on the feminist side concerning greater flexibility in work schedules, family leave, etc. To the extent that feminists present these as "women's issues", they are again buying into the notion that family responsibilities rest primarily on women's shoulders. Because that has been a reality that only recently is changing, women have been the ones to raise the issue. The benefits, though, should and increasingly are available to men as well.
    I absolutely agree, I just don't have much faith in common sense moderates rising into positions of leadership & influence in either camp. Even if two pragmatists would somehow make it, both camps use so much mutual vilification as a justification tool to gain internal support & camp loyalty, how can you convince your own people to cooperate with the very entity they expect you to fight against. They won't see women right activists and men right activists working together, they'll see it as giving in to the feminazi/misogynists. Cooperating with the other camp has the risk of legitimizing it.

  3. #1063
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    But... Maybe we can try it on a smaller scale. Assuming some better rules for engagement would be viewed as beneficial to both sides...

    Alright, people of either sides:
    A crucial thought experiment in any discussion is reversing the argument - to ask yourself if it can be used against the position that uses it just as easily as it can be used to defend it from it's counter. Assuming a consistency theory of truth, it should be safe to say that for a viable reason for something to be true, the same reasoning should not be equally able to support a truth that contradicts it and thereby proves it both true & untrue in the same time. This is the key test our understanding and test many fallacies emerge from.

    The two pieces of 'evidence' demonstrate the need for this quite well:
    Neither Roosh (The pickup artist in this video interview) nor Emmett Rensin (The author of this editorial) can provide as much as a single statement that could pass that test, they are both so horribly biased that they function as near-perfect living strawmans (Even though only one of those seems to intentionally be given as such).
    Even worst: A few pages ago I've said "it would be a sad day when the MRA comes up with The Matriarchy", and it turns out it's splinter group already has, as I've found out recently by been introduced here to the theory of "Gynocentrism" from the MGTOW side, because apparently Patriarchy theory felt lonely and needed an identical clone replicating every single bit of faulty rationalization. There is absolutely no excuse for that.


  4. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    What would the 4th wave of feminism be?
    There won't be one. Anti-feminism will first purify feminism of it's political BS, shenanigans, double speak, myths, deceitful stats etc. Once that is done what you will have left, the core, which won't really look like modern feminism at all and what it has become, will be synthesized with the core of anti-feminism and assimilated into society. A humanist society that 'judges' an individual on their unique strengths and 'willingness' to cultivate them.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  5. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Even worst: A few pages ago I've said "it would be a sad day when the MRA comes up with The Matriarchy", and it turns out it's splinter group already has, as I've found out recently by been introduced here to the theory of "Gynocentrism" from the MGTOW side, because apparently Patriarchy theory felt lonely and needed an identical clone replicating every single bit of faulty rationalization. There is absolutely no excuse for that.
    Could you elaborate on what you view as The Matriarchy? Could you also elaborate on what you view as Gynocentrism?
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Could you also elaborate on what you view as Gynocentrism?
    For god sake Spanky you know very well that you introduced me to it. Go ahead and speak for what you believe it is, and then - please - use it in a few sentences, of your own or how you've heard them used. The definition is one thing, it's the use that provides meaning.

    I have no desire to puppeteer devil advocating it with one hand and breaking it with the other while you can advocate for it genuinely. Who knows, maybe the more reasonable among them - by seen the crazy matched on the your side and thus been more inclined to see it's flaws, might end up also checking themselves for hypocrisies after and reconsidering their own equivalents.

  7. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    For god sake Spanky you know very well that you introduced me to it. Go ahead and speak for what you believe it is, and then - please - use it in a few sentences, of your own or how you've heard them used. The definition is one thing, it's the use that provides meaning.

    I have no desire to puppeteer devil advocating it with one hand and breaking it with the other while you can advocate for it genuinely. Who knows, maybe the more reasonable among them - by seen the crazy matched on the your side and thus been more inclined to see it's flaws, might end up also checking themselves for hypocrisies after and reconsidering their own equivalents.
    The following is my edited version but consensus of what Gynocentrism is.

    "Gynocentrism, as I am using it here, and how I wish we would all use it, is a biologically driven predisposition to protect women. This predisposition is in both men and women, though manifests itself differently. The overall effect is society, both men and women, being hypersensitive to female suffering, and callus to male suffering. It is society being hyper aware of dangers and injustices to women, while being oblivious to dangers and injustices to men. It is a matter of putting women first.

    Gynocentrism is not a random anomaly, a mental illness, a philosophy, or a derivative of some other philosophy; it is an instinctual predisposition. This instinct is in most, if not all, other animals as well as humans. In simplest terms 'it' isn't good or bad, it just is. Therefore it isn't patriarchy theory in reverse.

    The evolutionary basis for this instinct works like this:

    The value of either given sex is based upon how limited their capacity for offspring is. Men replenish their sperm very quickly. A woman can only become pregnant a few times in her life. So women are the limiting factor in the production of offspring. This makes women more valuable. The reason for all of this is simple: for a species to survive, it must reproduce. No matter how long the life span of a species, as long as its birthrate is higher than its death rate, it will continue to exist. If the female is the limiting factor, than her life and her safety, is more important. It will hurt a species significantly more to have 20% of its female population killed, than it would to have 20% of its male population killed. Thus we have evolved with an instinct to protect women and keep them safe. This instinct is in both men and women.

    Women instinctively look out for the well being of women.
    Men instinctively look out for the well being of women.

    Females are more important to the survival of the species than the male, thus a species must behave in a way that prioritizes the well being of the females ahead of the males.

    This is gynocentrism.

    Once you fully understand this, you will see why men pursue women in mating, and why women are very picky.
    You will understand why men are disposable in our society.
    You will understand why women use men, and control them, as a tool.
    You will understand why our culture says “women and children first”.
    You will understand why women’s cancers and diseases receive more funding.
    You will understand why women are given lighter sentences and kept out of jail more.
    You will understand why men pay the bulk of the taxes and women receive the bulk of the entitlement programs.
    <insert laundry list of male issues here>"

    The research done by Ryan touches on the this. Although being a good scientist she hypothesized 'conditioning' vs. something else, i.e. the afore mentioned. More research in this area would be appreciated.

    As ManWomanMyth once wrote: Men want what women want.


    Case in point, the 19th amendment (granting women the right to vote) was passed by 100 white cis-gendered heteropatriarchs (some oppressive patriarchs ) once women figured out amongst themselves what they wanted; suffragettes vs. female traditionalists who argued that if women were allowed to vote they would also be conscripted. If that argument sounds familiar that's because it should, it was one of the main reasons why the ERA wasn't passed. Phyllis Schlafly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The 19th amendment passed because the suffragettes won vs. female tradcons and the ERA failed because of the opposite.

    "It is also the primary reason feminists tell men to “check their privilege” all the while being the privileged group. Women are instinctively wired to take all of their safety and luxury for granted, and to see themselves as underprivileged, or victimized, endangered or persecuted. Women are just doing what they were born to do: looking out for their own kind, and viewing the world from the lens of “how does this effect women” without stopping to care and asking themselves “how does this effect men”.

    Women instinctively believe that safety and well being is a thing reserved for women, and it is not reserved for men, because the role of men is to look out for the safety and well being of women (men are to protect and provide), and to part with their own safety and well being if necessary. Men must make sacrifices to keep women safe and well. The safety and well being of men, is not in the equation, thus they are blind to male suffering and injustice.

    That which threatens men, only matters if the threat to these men harms women. All concerns in our society are centered around whether or not this pleases or displeases women.

    To some degree, the things I said were exaggerated. But they were exaggerated to help you understand how this system, this mechanism, of gynocentrism works."
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  8. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    ...
    Good job, you've provided the definition and the framework. Now show how it's actually used. Explain again how having women among them makes the MRA gynocentric.

  9. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Good job, you've provided the definition and the framework. Now show how it's actually used.
    I already used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Explain again how having women among them makes the MRA gynocentric.
    Who made this statement? The gender of people in the MRA has nothing to do with gynocentrism, I have no idea where you got/get that from. Perhaps you are referring to a statement I made in vent to you wherein I said that 'most' of the MRA is gynocentric. The leading 'manifestation' of the MRA is AVFM who has recently hired Janet Bloomfield aka JudgyBitch who is most certainly a traditionalist (gendered division of labor) to be their PR person. This was 'likely' a political move by AVFM to make them more PC and appealing (look a woman!) but in the process has turned them into a A Voice For Housewives because now they are supporting traditionalist division of labor.

    It's a common theme within most of the MRA, that all 'we' need to do is equalize a few laws, get people to acknowledge male suffering and then we can all go back to playing house. While simultaneously avoiding further analysis of why these policies/laws were passed in the first place. Hypothetically you could remove every single feminist in existence today and over time something resembling feminism would sprout up. Gynocentrism is the vector for the mind virus.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    ...
    Nice. Now, would you like to explain how gynocentrisicm can be used as a distinction between MRA & MGTOW, perhaps relating it to the perceived leader of the MGTOW movement, or will that be a "Who made this statement" case too?

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