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  1. #1031
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Our move towards a society which abandons our own biological makeup which gives special privileges to women and demonizes men is unsustainable because jobs that would normally be given to men are now gimped and given to women. I have to ask that if women are so competent and independent then why are they electing government officials that provide them with extra benefits and privileges? instead of depending on men to support them they are depending on the government which is unsustainable in the long run and further runs our economy into debt.
    The highlighted is an unsubstantiated assertion. Most elected officials gain a significant share of men's and women's votes. Many officials - elected by men and women - try to prevent or even roll back the benefits you mention, and those who support and enact them make them available to men and women. There is no real gender distinction here.

    You will also need to explain what you mean by "gimping" jobs. I have already gone through the list of those few jobs that really do benefit from the greater size and brute strength of the average man. The vast majority fall outside this category, and are unrelated to biology.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    There are very few benefits to the contract of marriage vs. cohabitation. People are still coupling up and making babies, family unit creation, but not getting married. One look at children born out of wedlock stats overlayed by the marriage rate shows this.

    Cohabitation is the 'new' marriage. Therefore 'moving out' is the new divorce. This 'began' decades ago and is ongoing.

    Is that a better deal?

    I am not asking to make a point, I am asking because I actually don't know and I am really curious:
    Can cohabitation fathers get joint custody (Legal or physical)? Can you get visitation rights if you don't?
    What are the current laws regarding it? What are the statistics on how it's performs in court or outside of it so far?

    Edit: I might not have the time to do another round of research like I did in the beginning of this thread until the weekend. Edit 2: Never mind. Please note that while this is a thorough study with a lot of attention given to every case in an interview format, and it does happen to correspond with everything I have seen in both marriages and cohabitation scenarios (Anecdotal evidence disclaimer), it suffers from the obvious limitations that come with a limited sample size.

    Cohabitation has become widespread and separation in these relationships is more likely than it is in marriage. Yet we know little about why couples cohabit, the role of cohabiting men as fathers and what happens to them when a relationship dissolves. This study, by a team at Lancaster University, examines cohabitation breakdown from the perspective of the father. In interviews with fifty parents who had cohabited and then separated, it looked at how fathers and mothers described their cohabitation, the role of the father in the relationship and his continued involvement once the relationship dissolved. The researchers found that:

    • Respondents compared marriage and cohabitation in three main ways: as indistinguishable and in which one or other form is a preferable arrangement. A majority described cohabitation as a moral obligation or commitment equivalent to marriage, but also as more 'honest', with change and dissolution seen as part of a negotiation process rather than a breach of marriage vows.
    • 72 per cent of these unmarried mothers and fathers proclaimed strong beliefs in egalitarian gender roles.
    • Almost half (47 per cent) of these fathers were reported to have a major or equally shared involvement in their children's care when they were cohabiting.
    • However, often the separation was attributed to the man's 'immaturity' either in failing to provide for his family or in trying to break away from this 'traditional' expectation. This view was expressed mainly by women.
    • There was a deeply held assumption, mainly by mothers, that maternal 'rights' have a primacy over paternal responsibility.
    • After separation the man's role in childcare dropped considerably even if he had been the primary carer of his child. The mothers were depicted by both mothers and fathers as being in control of paternal contact, whether by keeping fathers at arms' length or encouraging their involvement.
    • A number of factors hampered the continuation of paternal care of the child, including the size and location of the father's new home, negotiations with their ex-partner over money and the lack of a strong social support network for fathers.
    • Many fathers felt powerless in their attempts to maintain their contact with and responsibilities towards their children.


    Reasons for the break-up
    Forty per cent of the sample (particularly mothers) identified the 'irresponsibility' of their partner as the main cause of the split. Seventy per cent of separations were initiated by the woman.

    Father-child contact after the separation
    All the mothers initially assumed primary responsibility for the child, usually with the father moving out and into accommodation that was unsuitable for the child or children to stay on a regular basis. Like married men, these cohabiting fathers' contact with the child dropped dramatically after the separation, even when they had been the child's primary care-giver. As with all fathers, the patterns of their contact varied, depending largely upon the relationship between father and mother and patterns of financial exchange (see Figure 1).

    parents' views about the same events often differed.
    • For example, one mother saw paternal reserve as a lack of interest: "[Father] just accepted that she [child] would go with me and that was it. It never even came into discussion that she would stop with him, never. He's not really been interested ... not been there for her." (Mother)
    • For him, the interest is acute: "It's very painful not having access ... because I feel I can't contribute, that I can't be a proper dad any more because I'm being restricted all the time... It's the most painful thing I've ever known ... last year was the worst year of my life because I was so far away from them and I was so distant from them." (Father)


    Why don't more fathers gain residence?
    Four main reasons were given for men's continuing disadvantages after the separation:
    • The primacy of 'mothering': The presumption that mothers are more important to the child than are fathers ran through many interviews, even those with fathers who had primary responsibility for the child.
    • Accommodation: Moving to a new home puts the father at a disadvantage. Often his accommodation is less comfortable and has few possessions for the child to identify as her/his own. If it is in a new area then this creates problems about giving the child a sense of belonging there.
    • Money: Mothers saw negotiations over child support as demonstrating the man's lukewarm commitment as a parent. Fathers saw maternal demands over money as a demonstration of the fact that he has to 'buy' contact with the child.
    • Social network: Many fathers did not have the network of friends and relations to support them as active parents. Indeed a few mothers suggested that single mothers support each other, occasionally to the exclusion of men.


    Sounds like marriage to me.

  3. #1033
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    Going over the thread, it seems I forgot to share the results of fact checking some of the claims made here. My apologies.

    "Joint custody is the most common arrangement" - true for legal custody but not for physical custody, the later of which is what is used to determine time with the child and the direction of child support. Note the last bit - "shared custody is more common among more educated parents" - I believe that given the people who have expressed this sentiment, this is probably what is skewing the difference between their anecdotal experience and general trends.

    Type and Incidence of Custody Arrangements
    Nearly all states have distinguished in their legislation, either explicitly or implicitly, between legal custody, which refers to decision making regarding the child's health and welfare, and physical custody, which refers to the living arrangements of the child on a day-to-day basis. Table 1 describes different types of possible custody arrangements. Considerable variation exists among states in the definition of joint custody and the circumstances under which it is permitted or denied.32 Because joint physical custody statutes do not require fifty-fifty time sharing or define how much time the child resides with each parent, actual resident time may range along a continuum from somewhat expanded visiting to equal time in each household. Most noncustodial parents seeking joint physical custody object to being a visitor in the child's life and want their child to live with them at least part of the time rather than visit infrequently. One study found that, when joint-custody parents do not have equal time sharing, mothers always have the larger share of time.34

    The legal trend over the past decade has been to favor shared parental legal authority over shared residential custody.31 It is not possible to determine, on a national basis, what percentage of parents have joint legal or physical custody, as these data must be obtained from individual divorce decrees. Studies in California and Massachusetts indicate that the incidence of joint legal custody rises dramatically when statutes permit it,35,38-40 with three California studies finding joint legal custody in 80% to 90% of decrees in the mid-1980s.35,38,40

    The number of joint physical custody orders also increases after enabling legislation is passed, but at a much lower rate.35,39-41 In the absence of national data, regional studies suggest that joint legal and sole maternal physical custody is today the most common legal custody arrangement in the United States, followed by sole legal and physical custody to the mother. Divided and split custody orders are rare, accounting for less than 5% of orders.35,39 While judges appear to share society's belief that siblings should not be separated, such arrangements evolve informally between parents in the years after divorce, particularly with older children.19,35,42

    Despite changes in law and social custom over two decades, physical custody arrangements have remained rather stable. In the 1970s, women had sole custody of the children 85% of the time, and men retained sole custody 10% of the time, with the remaining 5% a variety of other custody arrangements.43 Recent studies, based on census and survey data that reflect which parent has the child in residence more than half the time, indicate that father-custody figures may be closer to 15%.44

    However, the incidence and type of joint physical parenting arrangements are difficult to determine. In divorce research, living arrangements are categorized as joint physical custody when the child lives with one of the parents from 30% to 50% of the time.35,41,45-47 Using this criterion, between 17% to 34% of families shared physical custody in the mid-1980s in a jurisdiction (California) permitting joint custody.35,41,45 Because these are not random sampling studies, actual rates outside the San Francisco Bay Area and California may be lower. Studies in other states indicate that from 12% to 24% of children are visiting their fathers often enough to be considered living in shared residence arrangements.48,49 All studies find that shared custody is more common among more educated parents.35,41,46,47,50

    Source: The patriarchy... I mean, The Future of Children
    So what happens between the main custodian and the other parent? Let's have a look:







    For a society that has evolved away from gender discrimination in court, those are awfully horizontal lines.
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  4. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Not feminism. If I had to assign a gender-based "ism" to it, I'd say the data points to the "Patriarchy". The AFDC program started in 1935. It got replaced in 1996 with Bill Clinton's work-related reforms, but the new version is essentially the same.

    In that day and age, it was a desire to provide social benefits to those who were unlucky, who lost their primary breadwinner. Aid was provided, initially, to white single mothers, who were expected not to work (because patriarchy). Aid to Families with Dependent Children - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Check again, it was both written and lobbied for by Grace Abbott and Katherine Lenroot, the former a prominent member of the suffrage movement. That patriarchy I keep hearing about seems to really love using prominent feminists and feminist organizations to do it's dirty work.

  5. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is an unsubstantiated assertion. Most elected officials gain a significant share of men's and women's votes. Many officials - elected by men and women - try to prevent or even roll back the benefits you mention, and those who support and enact them make them available to men and women. There is no real gender distinction here.

    You will also need to explain what you mean by "gimping" jobs. I have already gone through the list of those few jobs that really do benefit from the greater size and brute strength of the average man. The vast majority fall outside this category, and are unrelated to biology.
    Statistically most women vote democrat who makes up 52% of the total population. Jobs in the military have much lower standards for women than for men in order to be accepted, also jobs in policing and firefighting.

  6. #1036
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  7. #1037

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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Our move towards a society which abandons our own biological makeup which gives special privileges to women and demonizes men is unsustainable because jobs that would normally be given to men are now gimped and given to women. I have to ask that if women are so competent and independent then why are they electing government officials that provide them with extra benefits and privileges? instead of depending on men to support them they are depending on the government which is unsustainable in the long run and further runs our economy into debt.
    I'm with you on traditional gender roles and biological differences. I'm just a little concerned about you because lately, you're coming across as upset and leaning towards bitter (about women). My intuition tells me someone you cared a lot about hurt you and isn't being respectful.

    My sincere hope is that you find true love.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    That's not my experience. Marriage is teamwork and it's (mostly) happy times when you're with the right person.

    The married man depicted in the video is a low quality, low class, emotionally immature bully and I wouldn't wish him on my worst enemy or take anything he says seriously.

  8. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    I'm with you on traditional gender roles and biological differences. I'm just a little concerned about you because lately, you're coming across as upset and leaning towards bitter (about women). My intuition tells me someone you cared a lot about hurt you and isn't being respectful.

    My sincere hope is that you find true love.
    I don't really believe in "true love" I think it's all bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    That's not my experience. Marriage is teamwork and it's (mostly) happy times when you're with the right person.

    The married man depicted in the video is a low quality, low class, emotionally immature bully and I wouldn't wish him on my worst enemy or take anything he says seriously.
    I think marriage is slavery these days. But yeah the video was kind of a joke.

  9. #1039
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Check again, it was both written and lobbied for by Grace Abbott and Katherine Lenroot, the former a prominent member of the suffrage movement. That patriarchy I keep hearing about seems to really love using prominent feminists and feminist organizations to do it's dirty work.
    What THEY wanted didn't quite become law:

    Aid To Dependent Children: The Legal History - Social Welfare History Project

    Like most laws, it was a mishmash of compromises. That it helped women is about the only thing that is "feminist" about it. It was written assuming how culture and marriage worked at the time, and as such were not entirely unreasonable. Once divorce laws and birth control and abortion changed the cultural rules, these older laws (and longstanding legal assumptions about alimony and divorce) didn't go away. The new cultural rules provided women with much more freedom than ever before, but they still have legal privileges based on much older legal structures.

    So I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm saying the problem isn't so much "feminism" but cultural changes due in part to feminism PLUS slow-to-change laws and legal doctrines that were originally intended to account for women not being expected to be able to provide for themselves very well.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  10. #1040

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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I don't really believe in "true love" I think it's all bullshit.
    True love describes the qualities of an emotionally mature person (i.e., kind, respectful, non-needy).

    I think marriage is slavery these days. But yeah the video was kind of a joke.
    Come on, you know better. You don't have to let the negative images of what everyone else is doing defeat you. You can be the exception. There are others like you.

    I predict your pride is on the verge of bringing you to the end of yourself.

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