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  1. #1011
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    It's not coincidence that male suicide are at it's highest after a divorce.
    I also think that in our culture, it is extremely undervalued (and even denigrated in many situations) for males to be able to deal with and understand their own emotions, have a social support structure, and many other things that contribute to emotional health and resiliency in a human being. They are discouraged and shamed for this from a very young age, so of course it's not going to be a skill they develop. Then, when bad things happen, many men are limited in their ability to deal with their own feelings and have very few people to turn to.

    It is really sad.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.
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  2. #1012
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    <ModeratorMode>

    We've removed off-topic posts. Keep to the topic of the thread, and stop trash-talking each other. This is the only warning to all participants.

    </ModeratorMode>

    <uumlauMode>

    Let's keep it civil, people. There's a lot of honesty and caring expressed in this thread, which is why it's worth having (to me, at least, in spite of the opinion of many!). Respect it. Yeah, it's a touchy subject. That's why people want to post. If you decide you want to post, say something honest, say something respectful, don't insult other members. It's even more important when the subject is this touchy.

    This is just my opinion, not a moderator declaration.

    </uumlauMode>
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  3. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I also think that in our culture, it is extremely undervalued (and even denigrated in many situations) for males to be able to deal with and understand their own emotions, have a social support structure, and many other things that contribute to emotional health and resiliency in a human being. They are discouraged and shamed for this from a very young age, so of course it's not going to be a skill they develop. Then, when bad things happen, many men are limited in their ability to deal with their own feelings and have very few people to turn to.

    It is really sad.
    I have a good friend who is a social worker. He works primarily with at-risk teenage boys to help them to be able to process what they are going through in their family lives and other daily interactions, to have feelings available to them other than just anger and lust.

    He is an amazing, strong, caring person who puts his money - and time - where his mouth is.

    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.
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  4. #1014
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I think that's why the topic of the thread is "3rd wave feminism". If you bother to peruse the current ideology and terminology and the kinds of topics available at feminist conferences, you'll see some material so ridiculous that it almost mocks itself and feminism in general. I believe that is what several people in this thread are complaining about.

    In almost every thread I've seen on feminism in recent months has been along these lines: there's a "reasonable" feminism which is "just equal rights" and a "radical" feminism which has an agenda that borders on bizarre. I think it helps to keep this difference in mind when trying to read things in this thread in context. Most guys I know aren't complaining about "equal rights", they're complaining about what they see as an unfair system. It might actually be unfair or it might not, but that's the context.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  5. #1015
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    This is why I'm very PRO females entering the military. This will demolish one of the pillars of gynocentrism, which in broad terms deems women to be more valuable than men, therefore we dare not risk their lives. That's equality. I have reservations as to female upper body strength and their physical ability to get the job done, i.e. carry a wounded camrade off the battlefield (firefighters and other emergency response people deal with this issue, currently). Just look at the Marines program to get women to pass male standards for entry and the abysmal failure of that program. That said, women can pull a trigger or push a button just as well as any man can Guns are the great equalizer, but I digress *resists urge to wander off into a pro 2nd amendment rant*.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Again, I'm all FOR women in front line combat roles as long as they can pass to male standards. Equality and whatnot.
    I agree, but there shouldn't be "male standards" and "female standards", except when assessing an individual's health due to anatomical differences. Standards should be directly related to the requirements of the job or position, with the understanding that men and women might accomplish a task in different ways, to make the most of individual advantages. If 90% of women can't meet the standards for a certain job, obviously they shouldn't be assigned to it. But this shouldn't exclude the 10% who can, or give a pass to the 10% of men who cannot, just because they are men.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    IIn almost every thread I've seen on feminism in recent months has been along these lines: there's a "reasonable" feminism which is "just equal rights" and a "radical" feminism which has an agenda that borders on bizarre. I think it helps to keep this difference in mind when trying to read things in this thread in context. Most guys I know aren't complaining about "equal rights", they're complaining about what they see as an unfair system. It might actually be unfair or it might not, but that's the context.
    It's amazing how much clearer things become when people define their terms, and take note when others are using different definitions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think that's why the topic of the thread is "3rd wave feminism". If you bother to peruse the current ideology and terminology and the kinds of topics available at feminist conferences, you'll see some material so ridiculous that it almost mocks itself and feminism in general. I believe that is what several people in this thread are complaining about.

    In almost every thread I've seen on feminism in recent months has been along these lines: there's a "reasonable" feminism which is "just equal rights" and a "radical" feminism which has an agenda that borders on bizarre. I think it helps to keep this difference in mind when trying to read things in this thread in context. Most guys I know aren't complaining about "equal rights", they're complaining about what they see as an unfair system. It might actually be unfair or it might not, but that's the context.
    To be fair, both define their agenda as "equal rights".

    The difference is in the narrative around it - by constructing a world view on what is the cause of inequality you provide a frame for confirmation bias to pick which privileges can be portrayed on as examples of inequality (Thus proving the cause and reinforcing the narrative) and which can be rationalized away, dismissed as non-issues through comparative morality (How dare you mention problem Y when we have problem X, our problem is real damn it), or my absolute favorite, further proof of the big bad wolf conspiring by falsifying data as evident by the fact it doesn't fit with the narrative. There is also a very big difference in how much gravity issues are given, and so what means can be justified towards the end of solving them.

    By using this to determine what counts as the rights that should be equal, the belief you are fighting for equal rights can remain the same, even while the actual undertaking would take a completely different meaning then otherwise. I think this can be seen earlier in a post that found the notion of any negative forms of discrimination against men today to be comparable with the notion of negative discrimination against whites during black slavery days. When that is the world view you think you live in, fighting for equal rights is a pretty one sided affair. This is how all the sides in this debate believe themselves to be fighting for equal rights, with very different meanings.

  7. #1017
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I also think that in our culture, it is extremely undervalued (and even denigrated in many situations) for males to be able to deal with and understand their own emotions, have a social support structure, and many other things that contribute to emotional health and resiliency in a human being. They are discouraged and shamed for this from a very young age, so of course it's not going to be a skill they develop. Then, when bad things happen, many men are limited in their ability to deal with their own feelings and have very few people to turn to.

    It is really sad.
    The question I would ask of this is do you think this is because men are ill equipped by their peers to deal with the emotion and stresses of modern life or is it because in a modern life some qualities of a man are denigrated?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #1018
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    I think 2034 is a damned optimistic deadline. But we can all hope for the best. Never give up the dream!
    Hello,

    You could always assist in the process (thereby speeding it up) by labeling as an: Equity Feminist like Christina Hoff Sommers Christina Hoff Sommers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and advocate accordingly. This would piss of the 'true' feminists who have deemed Sommers an anti-feminist feminist Pissing off feminists in general can cause the 'back-fire' effect backfire effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com which is a manifestation of cognitive dissonance & confirmation bias technically, but I digress.

    Yeah, backfire, see when someone comes out of backfire they are annoyed & agitated and reminded of why they are 'fighting/annoyed' in the first place. Which may lead them to activism or further activism (depending on their starting 'position'), which then leads to more opposition as they 'wake' up others who weren't even paying attention. It's all a downward spiral really, but instead of annihilation of the two opposed ideas a phoenix is born from the ashes.

    However if all this sounds like too much drama and energy expenditure, I understand and that's probably the majority position. I would suggest investing in pet food and popcorn companies then so you can at least profit.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #1019
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    @SpankyMcFly - That's one of the most questionable variables in predicting whether the antithesis has a chance to gain a significant foothold:

    How many men can be arsed into having the same protective reflex towards other men that we have towards women? Can it even be done on any significant scale?
    Another way to look at this is why do women have in group bias towards women? Why are women 'conditioned' (according to Ryan's 5 hypothesis) to have in group bias? Basically men AND women can be conditioned to view men more favorably, thereby diminishing this pro female bias or 'anti-male bias' depending on your politics.

    Additionally this perspective only looks at the male side of the 'reparations'. Women have just as much an interest and thereby obligation? (dunno if that word is appropriate) to engage in 'reparations' and by reparations I mean neutralizing/eliminating this in group bias.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  10. #1020
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I also think that in our culture, it is extremely undervalued (and even denigrated in many situations) for males to be able to deal with and understand their own emotions, have a social support structure, and many other things that contribute to emotional health and resiliency in a human being. They are discouraged and shamed for this from a very young age, so of course it's not going to be a skill they develop. Then, when bad things happen, many men are limited in their ability to deal with their own feelings and have very few people to turn to.

    It is really sad.
    Agreed.

    Why do 'we' condition men this way? Gynocentrism. Society values the egg carrier more than the sperm carrier and since human conflict is inevitable and when it becomes time to risk lives via warfare 'we' toss the men into the fray as they are less valuable, aka male disposability. The means to conduct warfare has changed dramatically however, but I digress. We therefore condition men to be stoic and to self succor and repress their fear, shame, guilt, emotions = bad (and what gets repressed becomes projected...). Men aren't born this way, they are made this way, because one day society may deem it necessary to engage in warfare and it's the men that do the dying. It's OK though, society will 'reward' your valor/sacrifice and your feats will be sung in the annals of history, ok not really. To the men who have zero interest in risking/sacrificing your life one word, conscription.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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