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  1. #41
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Ayrab View Post
    If it was up to me, I would have alcohol and nicotine banned as well, but it is not up to me, and I know we tried that a while back as well. Stupid F.D. R. and his I think it's time to have a drink line.
    Ever heard of Al Capone? There's a reason they got rid of prohibition, it had pretty much no effect.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Ayrab View Post
    Legalizing any addictive substance and making it easy and acceptable to require is very irresponsible.
    The government cannot make a drug acceptable, only society can do that. The government can make a drug easy to obtain, which has numerous benefits, like reducing violent crime, prison populations, etc.

    How many smokers do you know? I was a smoker and if it was not so easy to acquire and acceptable for me to do it, without any immediate threats, I would not have done it enough to get addicted. I wasn't a bad person, I just wanted to try it, and try it, and try it, thats all. Working at the hospital, I know for a fact that atleast 1/3 of our M.D./DO staff has taken time off and been forced into our own rehab program. Many of them are repeat offenders. The easier your access to it, the higher your number of abusers will be. The biggest abusers of pain medication in our state are not college kids, or gangsters and thugs, its your average every day caucasian middle class housewife/soccer mom. They have the easiest time convincing doctors to give them perscriptions and anxiety medications more than anyone else.

    Now I am not naive in the fact that thinking making something illegal will stop it, heck no, you will always have a black market. Only differences is that making something legal will boost the number of users, that is all. Anyone that says alcohol is not a problem in our society is full of so much shit it stinks. Statistically, the highest likely cause for my death in the United states is due to a alcohol related car accident, and then probably heart problems later on in life due to abusing food or smoking.
    The part the I bolded couldn't be more wrong. The benefits are numerous. I don't feel like making a long post about it, so I'll leave it at that, for now.

    Just out of curiousity, which drug do you guys think is the most dangerous? Alcohol, Nicotine, Heroin, Cocaine, Methamphetamine or LSD. In reality, the worst is Alcohol, as it is the only drug that can kill you in withdrawal. Heroin is more addictive than the stimulants, as it not only causes sever depression on par with the stimulants, but it also causes severe pain symptoms as well, where as the others cause limited physical symptoms. LSD and the other hallucinogens, cause the least amount of damage, and can really mess up only people that were prone to serious psychological problems in the first place (schizophrenia).

    If it was up to me, I would have alcohol and nicotine banned as well, but it is not up to me, and I know we tried that a while back as well. Stupid F.D. R. and his I think it's time to have a drink line. The main thing that needs to change are drug arrest laws. You can't put a heroin user behind bars, and you can't kick some kid out of college for doing some Ex. You need to crack down hard on the dealer and distributor networks, not the kid with his dime bag. You need to make it easier and more acceptable for anyone to seek treatment for substance abuse, and do a better job at educating the population on exactly in every way, what drugs do, instead of these bullshit (frying an egg) your brain on drugs commercials.

    Anyway, that is my opinion but I could be wrong.
    I'm glad it's not up to you.

    We don't need to crack down on the dealer and distributor networks. That's a waste of money. The reason why there are drug dealers is because there's a demand for drugs. It is not possible to rid the world of drug dealers, no matter how much money you throw at the problem. When there are arrests, there are more to take their place. Why? Because there is a constant demand and the money is good. Why is the money so good? Because the government made drugs illegal.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    As something of Socialist, my feeling is that, if I have to put up with drug use, I want two conditions:

    1: I can tax the hell out of drugs.
    2: I can cut drug users out of any social program I want. Like, say, no universal healthcare coverage.

    I want them to cost as little, and pay as much, as is conceivably possible.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    As something of Socialist, my feeling is that, if I have to put up with drug use, I want two conditions:

    1: I can tax the hell out of drugs.
    2: I can cut drug users out of any social program I want. Like, say, no universal healthcare coverage.

    I want them to cost as little, and pay as much, as is conceivably possible.
    It's that attitude that makes life so difficult that they continue to use. Your taxes would raise prices, making users more likely to resort to stealing. Cutting them out of social programs makes them a special class, similar to ex-cons. The overall effect wouldn't be that much different than the religious right's plan, perhaps a bit milder. However, there would be a decrease in violent crime (turf wars, etc), so there's at least that positive effect. It would also eliminate the area where police are most vulnerable to corruption.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's that attitude that makes life so difficult that they continue to use.
    Well, a lot of my anti-drug plan is actually indirect. It's a living condtions improvement agenda, but a huge part of it is based on getting rid of poverty and ghettoes, which is based on economic balancing, which is based on a bunch of stuff you've already told me is wrong.

    Let's not go down that track again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your taxes would raise prices, making users more likely to resort to stealing.
    I don't know if you'll ever find way around stealing. If someone wants the drugs badly enough, stealing is likely to happen. At best, you could be drugs really cheap or free, but then I suspect that the entire program would just be an economic sink-hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Cutting them out of social programs makes them a special class, similar to ex-cons.
    I'm sorry, but a heroine addict is pretty much destined to face the "special class" existence. That's not a legal thing, that's a social thing. There are real, physical and psychological consequences to heavy drug use, there's nothing that can be done about it, and you can't expact people to just brush it off. If most human beings are going to reject addicts(and they are) that's too bad(but also completely understandable).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The overall effect wouldn't be that much different than the religious right's plan, perhaps a bit milder. However, there would be a decrease in violent crime (turf wars, etc), so there's at least that positive effect. It would also eliminate the area where police are most vulnerable to corruption.
    Well, here's another odd thought. Any property that is stolen will effectively be spent in a way that pays taxes. I know, not much consollation, but better than thinking it will just fund a shadow world.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #46
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Here's another thought. Assuming that we have a nationalized health care system (which I think is likely, despite my vehement opposition), kicking people out of the plan for using drugs is a pretty steep penalty. That penalty is steep enough that at least some people would hide their drug use (and create a black market...crime). It may be steep enough that most or all people at least try to hide their drug use. So it effectively bans drug use, without giving them prison time.

    If you're going to kick those people out, then you'll also need a way to enforce that restriction, which costs money. So the question becomes, is it more cost effective to just pay everyone's medical expenses or is cheaper to find out who is using and who isn't? And if it is cheaper to boot the addicts out, are the social and economic costs of alienating so many people from society worth that savings? Will those people be eligible to reenter the plan if they clean up? And if so, I assume you'll monitor those who clean up to make sure they stay clean, which again costs money.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    no one's ever sucked dick for a beer.
    I haven't thought through this issue that well, so I was going to just lurk. However, have you hear Guttermouth's song on the subject?
    You can download ring-tones even.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  8. #48
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    Overall, I side with Lateralus , it wasn't until about 100 years ago- well close to it (the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1914 ) The Harrison Narcotic Act (1914) that this oppression and criminalizing addictive drugs started to take place, mankind survived and civilization made it up to that period, if things had just been left alone as it HAD ALWAYS BEEN up until that time. Lateralus would agree with this guy and so do I > The Seattle Times: Opinion: Legalize drugs all of them

  9. #49
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by werewolfen1984 View Post
    Overall, I side with Lateralus , it wasn't until about 100 years ago- well close to it (the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1914 ) The Harrison Narcotic Act (1914) that this oppression and criminalizing addictive drugs started to take place, mankind survived and civilization made it up to that period, if things had just been left alone as it HAD ALWAYS BEEN up until that time. Lateralus would agree with this guy and so do I > The Seattle Times: Opinion: Legalize drugs all of them
    Well let's not forget that crack or meth wasn't around 100 years ago. And heroin was still fairly new. And just think about how strong and potentially devastating the new wave of future recreational drugs will be.

    This should at least be taken into account when deciding drug laws.

  10. #50
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Yeah... I'd like to point out that the industrialization of society severely changed the nature of drugs.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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