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  1. #1
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Default Socialism posts (moved from Global Warming.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think the idea is that many of the teachers in public school (at least while I was going) talk about socialism and "lower case c" communism in language and tones that could lead impressionable children to believe these things are good (though none of my socialism favoring teachers offered reason, they were simply stating their opinions).
    So? It's not like they're going to go out and start a revolution after school. Better to give them a neutral/slightly positive attitude towards something and then let them change their mind from there than to give them a negative attitude right off the bat, making them considerably more close minded, which isn't really a good thing for education.

    Of course, if you think that all teachers should teach from whatever your political viewpoint is, well, I guess my argument was pointless.

    Unless, of course, you were just stating the overall thought, and not necessarily your own. If that's the case, sorry about that, though my post still applies to those who are actually worried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    So? It's not like they're going to go out and start a revolution after school. Better to give them a neutral/slightly positive attitude towards something and then let them change their mind from there than to give them a negative attitude right off the bat, making them considerably more close minded, which isn't really a good thing for education.

    Of course, if you think that all teachers should teach from whatever your political viewpoint is, well, I guess my argument was pointless.

    Unless, of course, you were just stating the overall thought, and not necessarily your own. If that's the case, sorry about that, though my post still applies to those who are actually worried.
    Unfortunately, I am also helping to get this thread off-topic. But I think there is a substanttive complaint here. It is not that I believe that teachers are going to start a revolution. The problem comes when we graduate lots of publicly educated students who have warm feelings about socialism without really knowing where those feelings came from.

    I had a 3rd grade teacher who (teaches all subjects) would often when talking about Communism (this was the era of glasnost, and a little before the fall of the berlin wall, and then the dissolution of the Soviet Union, so the soviet union was often in current events). She would generally say that she thought communism was "beautiful" and that the U.S.S.R wasn't actually instituting it. What is amazing is that my 4rth grade through 12th grade teachers said the same sort of things. They never gave reasons. I didn't think much about it, but when I heard people denounce communism, I had pangs of "but the Soviet Union wasn't really communist" (I didn't know what it was that the U.S.S.R actually was, and I didn't have any reasons for having the thoughts I did. I was unwittingly indoctrinated.) Luckily, I was rational enough to think about how I arrived at my views in general, so I would simply shrug my shoulders when people talked about communism. But I know plenty of other who stayed indoctrinated, and searched desperately for ways to rationalize their beliefs (in the age of the internet, we can rationalize anything, it seems, and back things up with "facts").

    When it comes to political/economic policy making, it is hard to make a comletely reasoned argument to convince someone that some thing will work or not work. Often, we have to look at history, and look at consequenses. This again is complex. There are time-delayed effects, there are multiple variables effecting whether or not something will work.

    To make things worse, Economics (particularily macroeconomics) is one of those "sciences" that makes claims that aren't even physically possible (instantaneous information acrual, and "equilibrium" in markets). The equations and models used, are meant more to "paint a picture" of some principle or another than to really model reality, because the reality may, infact, be impossible to model.

    Perhaps I am being simple minded, but I think Communism has shown itself to be an abject failure, and "socialism" has shown itself to be a cover for human rights abuses.

    So if we are graduating hoardes of students who believe that "lower case c" communism is "beautiful" and look (as most people do) to find "facts" that back-up their beliefs, there is indeed something to worry about.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    I agree with you that communism won't work, though not necessarily about socialism (Denmark is pretty close to socialism, right? Yet I don't hear about a whole lot of human rights abuses going on there), but I disagree that there's anything to be really worried about. Many nations which fully adopted communism and socialism during the 1900-1950s did so not because they thought that communism was beautiful, but because they were hungry, mad, impoverished, and wanted someone to blame for it. Most of them also already had long histories of violence in the region. We don't really have an environment like that here (or you may actually, I'm not sure where you live), at least not yet, and until we do, I don't really think that people thinking communism is an ideal should be any cause for concern. We're nowhere near actually adopting anything like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I agree with you that communism won't work, though not necessarily about socialism (Denmark is pretty close to socialism, right? Yet I don't hear about a whole lot of human rights abuses going on there), but I disagree that there's anything to be really worried about. Many nations which fully adopted communism and socialism during the 1900-1950s did so not because they thought that communism was beautiful, but because they were hungry, mad, impoverished, and wanted someone to blame for it. Most of them also already had long histories of violence in the region. We don't really have an environment like that here (or you may actually, I'm not sure where you live), at least not yet, and until we do, I don't really think that people thinking communism is an ideal should be any cause for concern. We're nowhere near actually adopting anything like it.
    It's absolutely a concern to me, because it speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and to hatred of many good things about society. Communism isn't just bad in practice; it's 100% bad in theory, as well.

    And Denmark is not "pretty close to socialism." They have an extensive welfare state, but huge multinational corporations and decently free trade and civil liberties. That isn't the same thing as socialism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    So can you tell me more about this - socialism in schools - that we SHOULD be worried about, or was that comment a joke?
    We're not ready for socialism. Talk to me in 100 years. *yawn*

    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Well most people that actually have PHDs in climate related sciences seem to think there is something to worry about. I guess for those that have it all figured out, such as yourself, there is no need to worry.
    I've already argued against the evidence & support, and won't here, so assuming that's true: Let's talk to those PhD's in 10 years and see how worried they are. *yawn*

  6. #6

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    Again, how exactly is this socialist ideology taught in US public schools? Most people in public schools - are ready to defend America against the evil terrorist Muslims. They believe Saddam was threatening our way of life! They believed the Vietnamese were too, before we bombed the shit out of 'em.

    What socialist agenda is being pushed in our schools, that you guys are referring too?

    I would be impressed if the average US adult, could pick socialism out on a multiple choice test, let alone..... define what that word means, except as a scare tactic for all things evil. Do you guys really believe the average American is brainwashed by a leftist communist educational system - or suffer from some devious socialist brainwashing, that must be reversed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    We're not ready for socialism. Talk to me in 100 years. *yawn*
    I never said we were, I'm just trying to understand what you guys (and the esteemed Oregon Institute) are even talking about re: the socialist threat in public schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think the idea is that many of the teachers in public school (at least while I was going) talk about socialism and "lower case c" communism in language and tones that could lead impressionable children to believe these things are good (though none of my socialism favoring teachers offered reason, they were simply stating their opinions).
    I get it, must be why George Bush was elected for two consecutive terms. The pervasive socialism in our schools... The US is one of the most right wing, aggressive, industrialized nations on earth (in terms of foreign policy). Are you claiming our educational system is pushing our impressionable students into the other direction politically? Because if they are, they are doing a crap job of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I've already argued against the evidence & support, and won't here, so assuming that's true: Let's talk to those PhD's in 10 years and see how worried they are. *yawn*
    So the scientists are going to come around to your astute analysis within a decade. After they catch up and figure out the things you intuitively know?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I agree with you that communism won't work, though not necessarily about socialism (Denmark is pretty close to socialism, right? Yet I don't hear about a whole lot of human rights abuses going on there), but I disagree that there's anything to be really worried about.
    Well, no human rights abuses, but the culture suffers from a "tall poppy syndrome" which definitely keeps people from reaching their full potential. Imagine living in a country with this mentality as part of its cultural background:
    1. Thou shalt not believe thou art something.
    2. Thou shalt not believe thou art as good as we.
    3. Thou shalt not believe thou art more wise as we.
    4. Thou shalt not fancy thyself better than we.
    5. Thou shalt not believe thou knowest more than we.
    6. Thou shalt not believe thou art greater than we.
    7. Thou shalt not believe thou amountest to anything.
    8. Thou shalt not laugh at us.
    9. Thou shalt not believe that anyone is concerned with thee.
    10. Thou shalt not believe thou canst teach us anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Again, how exactly is this socialist ideology taught in US public schools? Most people in public schools - are ready to defend America against the evil terrorist Muslims. They believe Saddam was threatening our way of life! They believed the Vietnamese were too, before we bombed the shit out of 'em.
    What this shows us is how quickly things can turn. These were the results of the irrational fear of "the other" and extreme religousity taking root in the nation through other institutions.

    Churches and corporations influence current voting populations, not the future, so it makes sense that these would affect who gets elected more quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    What socialist agenda is being pushed in our schools, that you guys are referring too?
    I gave you my own experience through public school. I find it weird that so many public school teachers favored communism at the very time that communism was crumbling. Perhaps it came from being paid poorly.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    I would be impressed if the average US adult, could pick socialism out on a multiple choice test, let alone..... define what that word means, except as a scare tactic for all things evil. Do you guys really believe the average American is brainwashed by a leftist communist educational system - or suffer from some devious socialist brainwashing, that must be reversed?
    I can't speak for everyone. I am not afraid of a revolution, nor do I believe there is a conspiracy. However, I do think an awful lot of young people come out of school with tall-poppy syndrome, and other such issues that go along with socialism.

    In my opinion, TPS is a slower form of dehuamanization leading to de-individualizion, lack of competetiveness, and finally to lack of compitence, and then to corruption.

    Spend some time in Sri Lanka, and other so-called "laid-back" nations. Many people in places like this feel justified in attempting to rob you because they believe it arrogant of you to hold more wealth than the average. (Luckily, you don't have to challenge them too much to get money or items back, because it would be too much trouble for them.)

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I gave you my own experience through public school. I find it weird that so many public school teachers favored communism at the very time that communism was crumbling. Perhaps it came from being paid poorly.
    I hardly think that was, or is, the norm at public schools. Most public school teachers aren't political enough to push politics. They tend to be B students at second and third rate colleges. I guess I could see the occasional teacher pushing it, but not by that much more of a margin than the average office worker pushing it - which is to say, extremely fringe. Incidentally, I was directing my post more towards the other posters, who seemed to agree with you (Flak and Mercury).

    Sure there can be a few random fringe types sprinkled through our educational system, but I think it's FAR more common that we have teachers who are bible thumping, right wingers, than vocal communists.

    If social studies teachers were doing anything of the sort in mass way, there would be a huge backlash by right wing organizations. In the age of envangelical nutjobs and creationist museums, I have never seen or heard evidence of this communist agenda by public school teachers (and I'm from the Northeast). Teachers would get strung up for that in Texas or Georgia.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Perhaps I am being simple minded, but I think Communism has shown itself to be an abject failure, and "socialism" has shown itself to be a cover for human rights abuses.
    There is far more human rights abuses under the guise of capitalism and democracy than socialism. You do realize the US is hardly a true capitalist society. They give enormous farm subsidies, bail out banks and companies constantly when they make dumb moves in the market. Democratic Capitalist murder innocent civilians of other nations at a much higher rate than Communist countries. Though Communist China, and the former Soviet Republics murdered more of it's own citiziens. No one has killed more folks, from other nations, than the US government, post WWII.

    Most 3rd world countries who take the "capitalist" approach via loans dictacted to them via the World BAnk and IMF, overwhelmingly are worse off. While the nations that did industrialize (Korea, Taiwan, etc) REJECTED the "capitalist" remedies set by these organization and protected their fledgeling industries (which is essentially socialist policy).

    Most governments are just points on a scale, no nation is purely "capitalist". The institution of public schools in itself a socialist policy. Do you think that should be dismantled? Our health care system is far less efficient and more expensive than the health care systems of a "socialist" society such as Japan.

    The failure of the Soviet Union has less to do with socialism than a authoritarian regime that got caught in a arms race; they couldn't afford. Besides, they hardly practiced true socialism. Socialism is an economic system not a political one. They were an authoritarian socialist nation, which is very different from a truly democratic socialist society such as Sweden.

    The Chinese seemed to be doing a fairly nice job with their "socialism." Considering they loan us roughly 1 billion dollars a day; because of our enormous trade deficit, while we Americans live a lifestyle they can't afford by borrowing against dwindling future earnings. They are growing at 10% a year, while the US is attacking nations without provocation (to steal their oil). The Chinese could dump their US Treasury Bonds and plummet the value of the dollar to a level of hyperflation that would devastate our precarious economy.

    Communism was the old boogeyman, before terrorism. It was the pretense we used to invade or topple the government in Chile, Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Columbia, El Salvador, Guyana. When really we just wanted to steal their natural resources below market value.

  10. #10
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    There is far more human rights abuses under the guise of capitalism and democracy than socialism. You do realize the US is hardly a true capitalist society. They give enormous farm subsidies, bail out banks and companies constantly when they make dumb moves in the market. Democratic Capitalist murder innocent civilians of other nations at a much higher rate than Communist countries. Though Communist China, and the former Soviet Republics murdered more of it's own citiziens. No one has killed more folks, from other nations, than the US government, post WWII.

    Most 3rd world countries who take the "capitalist" approach via loans dictacted to them via the World BAnk and IMF, overwhelmingly are worse off. While the nations that did industrialize (Korea, Taiwan, etc) REJECTED the "capitalist" remedies set by these organization and protected their fledgeling industries (which is essentially socialist policy).

    Most governments are just points on a scale, no nation is purely "capitalist". The institution of public schools in itself a socialist policy. Do you think that should be dismantled? Our health care system is far less efficient and more expensive than the health care systems of a "socialist" society such as Japan.

    The failure of the Soviet Union has less to do with socialism than a authoritarian regime that got caught in a arms race; they couldn't afford. Besides, they hardly practiced true socialism. Socialism is an economic system not a political one. They were an authoritarian socialist nation, which is very different from a truly democratic socialist society such as Sweden.

    The Chinese seemed to be doing a fairly nice job with their "socialism." Considering they loan us roughly 1 billion dollars a day; because of our enormous trade deficit, while we Americans live a lifestyle they can't afford by borrowing against dwindling future earnings. They are growing at 10% a year, while the US is attacking nations without provocation (to steal their oil). The Chinese could dump their US Treasury Bonds and plummet the value of the dollar to a level of hyperflation that would devastate our precarious economy.

    Communism was the old boogeyman, before terrorism. It was the pretense we used to invade or topple the government in Chile, Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Columbia, El Salvador, Guyana. When really we just wanted to steal their natural resources below market value.
    This post is one gigantic FAIL. Pretty much nothing you say here is true.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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