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  1. #51

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    Didn't mean to leave ya hanging, been crazy busy the past few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The U.S. is clearly at fault for atrocities in Vietnam between 1963-1973. I NEVER CLAIMED OTHERWISE. You're arguing something that never happened.
    This is exactly when most of the slaughter and maiming of their population occurred. Maybe, I misunderstood your statement about the US not starting the war; implying it wasn't our fault. In my view, the people showing up in someone else's country and killing them is the side starting the war. Regardless, of what bullshit rationalization they use as the pretext to justify invasion. Small third world countries don't "start" wars with super powers. It just doesn't work that way, though the bully always claims the small, weak kid really instigaged it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, the single worst thing I can think of the U.S. doing to another country ever was dropping the A-bombs on Japan. That was sheer bloody murder, bordering on genocide.
    Vietnam was far worse, since they didn't attack us first, and would have NEVER attacked the US. The fact of the matter is there would be millions and millions of SE Asians that wouldn't have been crippled or killed from the US bombings and invasion.

    Most people get their Vietnam history from the American propagandized point of view (which is what I also believed until I bothered to study the conflict in more detail). The US tried to install a puppet regime that over 90% of the population did not want. Ho Chi Minh was beyond question the rightful leader of that nation. To put it in the most simplistic way possible, there would have been no war without the US sending in troops and carpet bombing peasants. We just assumed the horrific casualties would make them surrender their country to us, and we were wrong. It's clear you have a white washed extremely peripheral understanding of this conflict.

    If we stick to Japan for the moment, the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagaski weren't shit compared to the firebombing of most of their major cities, the A-bombs just get more press.. It's Dresden times 70, but it's not something brought up in American discourse on the subject. When it comes to violations of the Geneva convention and civilian massacres - it's always the Holocaust, Dresden and the two Atomic bombs.

    First column (Name of Japanese city firebombed)
    Second column (Percentage of the city destroyed)
    Third column (Equivalent in size to the following American city)


    Yokohama 58 Cleveland
    Tokyo 51 New York
    Toyama 99 Chattanooga
    Nagoya 40 Los Angeles
    Osaka 35.1 Chicago
    Nishinomiya 11.9 Cambridge
    Siumonoseki 37.6 San Diego
    Kure 41.9 Toledo
    Kobe 55.7 Baltimore
    Omuta 35.8 Miami
    Wakayama 50 Salt Lake City
    Kawasaki 36.2 Portland
    Okayama 68.9 Long Beach
    Yawata 21.2 San Antonio
    Kagoshima 63.4 Richmond
    Amagasaki 18.9 Jacksonville
    Sasebo 41.4 Nashville
    Moh 23.3 Spokane
    Miyakonoio 26.5 Greensboro
    Nobeoka 25.2 Augusta
    Miyazaki 26.1 Davenport
    Hbe 20.7 Utica
    Saga 44.2 Waterloo
    Imabari 63.9 Stockton
    Matsuyama 64 Duluth
    Fukui 86 Evansville
    Tokushima 85.2 Ft. Wayne
    Sakai 48.2 Forth Worth
    Hachioji 65 Galveston
    Kumamoto 31.2 Grand Rapids
    Isezaki 56.7 Sioux Falls
    Takamatsu 67.5 Knoxville
    Akashi 50.2 Lexington
    Fukuyama 80.9 Macon
    Aomori 30 Montgomery
    Okazaki 32.2 Lincoln
    Oita 28.2 Saint Joseph
    Hiratsuka 48.4 Battle Creek
    Tokuyama 48.3 Butte
    Yokkichi 33.6 Charlotte
    Uhyamada 41.3 Columbus
    Ogaki 39.5 Corpus Christi
    Gifu 63.6 Des Moines
    Shizuoka 66.1 Oklahoma City
    Himeji 49.4 Peoria
    Fukuoka 24.1 Rochester
    Kochi 55.2 Sacramento
    Shimizu 42 San Jose
    Omura 33.1 Sante Fe
    Chiba 41 Savannah
    Ichinomiya 56.3 Sprinfield
    Nara 69.3 Boston
    Tsu 69.3 Topeka
    Kuwana 75 Tucson
    Toyohashi 61.9 Tulsa
    Numazu 42.3 Waco
    Chosi 44.2 Wheeling
    Kofu 78.6 South Bend
    Utsunomiya 43.7 Sioux City
    Mito 68.9 Pontiac
    Sendai 21.9 Omaha
    Tsuruga 65.1 Middleton
    Nagaoka 64.9 Madison
    Hitachi 72 Little Rock
    Kumagaya 55.1 Kenosha
    Hamamatsu 60.3 Hartford
    Maebashi 64.2 Wheeling

    It's inconceivable for most ignorant Americans to imagine we can murder civilians, since they have this child like view of the world, where we're the good guys. They think it's a Hollywood Western, where we have white hats and the Indians are the bloodthirsty savages/communists/terrorists/fill in the blank. Which is the true largest genocide in the last millenia. Probably because they don't have holocaust museums, just racist sports mascots at sporting events. Redskins? That's like the Nazis naming a soccer team, the Kikes, after gassing them all.
    Last edited by meanlittlechimp; 08-21-2008 at 04:55 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    It's inconceivable for most ignorant Americans to imagine we can murder civilians, since they have this child like view of the world, where we're the good guys. They think it's a Hollywood Western, where we have white hats and the Indians are the bloodthirsty savages/communists/terrorists/fill in the blank. Which is the true largest genocide in the last millenia. You might think that was no one fault's either. Probably because they don't have holocaust museums, just racist sports mascots at sporting events. Redskins? That's like the Nazis naming a soccer team, the Kikes, after gassing them all.
    It's not so much that I think America is better*, but being American, I'd rather see an American victory than a defeat. In WWII for example, Japan attacked America. In the close of the war, American politicians decided sparing Japanese lives was not a priority in attaining victory. The American lives saved by total war (opposed to invasion of the mainland) were considered infinitely more valuable. And the Japanese leadership waited to surrender until long past the time when victory became hopeless for them.

    The world is changing though, and large wars are a bit passe. Out of the frying pan, and into the fire. Now the skirmishes are akin to street crime.

    *Though in some ways I do: The constitution (and much law) is excellent, was ahead of its time, and influential on the whole world; The level of freedom in general is unequaled as far as I know.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It's not so much that I think America is better*, but being American, I'd rather see an American victory than a defeat. In WWII for example, Japan attacked America. In the close of the war, American politicians decided sparing Japanese lives was not a priority in attaining victory. The American lives saved by total war (opposed to invasion of the mainland) were considered infinitely more valuable. And the Japanese leadership waited to surrender until long past the time when victory became hopeless for them.

    The world is changing though, and large wars are a bit passe. Out of the frying pan, and into the fire. Now the skirmishes are akin to street crime.

    *Though in some ways I do: The constitution (and much law) is excellent, was ahead of its time, and influential on the whole world; The level of freedom in general is unequaled as far as I know.
    The firebombing of Japan at least has some justification. They did try to take over all of Asia, when they saw a divided China. I don't see the firebombing of Japan nearly as eggregious as the bombing of SE Asia for a decade. It's astonishingly overlooked in terms of murderous genocidal behavior of an imperialist nation (at least by Americans anyways).

    True, the constitution was ahead of it's time and the US treats is own citizens better than the majority of the world.

    An interesting side note is that Ho Chi Minh based his constitution on the US. He was a great admirer of the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. He led an underground faction of Vietnamese who helped rescue American pilots during WWII. He risked his life against the Japanese on the side of the US. When the French tried to colonize them after the Japanese left, he begged Truman to give diplomatic aid during the French occupation and was very Pro-American (he lived in Harlem for a time and worked in Brooklyn). He started to change his mind about America's reverence for democracy and freedom, when Truman refused to meet him and supported and aided French occupation of the country.

    After he defeated the French, the US decides they could reap the spoils if the French can't handle it.

    When the US government received intelligence that he would win a landslide in a free election, what did they do? Bomb the hell out of his populace of course. You think they wouldn't need the CIA to realize, the guy who led the fight against the Japanese and the French would be overwhelmingly popular.

    The USG's choice for the puppet government they were trying to establish was horribly blotched. You don't prop up a corrupt despot, like Diem, who is Roman Catholic (in a nation that is predominantly Buddhist) and think you can win. There were people rioting in the streets at his corrupt regime, including the famous incidents of priests lighting themselves on fire in protest.

    When the US realized it wasn't working out, they assassinated him (talk about being fickle). I don't get why this fact is rarely brought up, when pro war folks think we were trying to help the South against the North. You typically don't assassinate your "allies" when things aren't going your way. One does get rid of it's stooges, when their use to you has run out, however. It's a misnomer that many think we were aiding the south against the north. The first half of the war was spent butchering the South Vietnamese, who were against Diem from the start.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    This is exactly when most of the slaughter and maiming of their population occurred. Maybe, I misunderstood your statement about the US not starting the war; implying it wasn't our fault. In my view, the people showing up in someone else's country and killing them is the side starting the war. Regardless, of what bullshit rationalization they use as the pretext to justify invasion. Small third world countries don't "start" wars with super powers. It just doesn't work that way, though the bully always claims the small, weak kid really instigaged it.
    No, I understand, but you're writing as if the way the war began was the U.S. invaded Vietnam and started killing people. We did invade and we did kill people, but it started with the French and the Chinese-funded Vietminh in "Indochina" and evolved with the North/South split and the U.S. military advisors and then ground troops. It wasn't like our current Iraq War, which we clearly started (i.e., there was no war until we showed up).



    Vietnam was far worse, since they didn't attack us first, and would have NEVER attacked the US. The fact of the matter is there would be millions and millions of SE Asians that wouldn't have been crippled or killed from the US bombings and invasion.

    Most people get their Vietnam history from the American propagandized point of view (which is what I also believed until I bothered to study the conflict in more detail). The US tried to install a puppet regime that over 90% of the population did not want. Ho Chi Minh was beyond question the rightful leader of that nation. To put it in the most simplistic way possible, there would have been no war without the US sending in troops and carpet bombing peasants. We just assumed the horrific casualties would make them surrender their country to us, and we were wrong. It's clear you have a white washed extremely peripheral understanding of this conflict.

    If we stick to Japan for the moment, the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagaski weren't shit compared to the firebombing of most of their major cities, the A-bombs just get more press.. It's Dresden times 70, but it's not something brought up in American discourse on the subject. When it comes to violations of the Geneva convention and civilian massacres - it's always the Holocaust, Dresden and the two Atomic bombs.

    First column (Name of Japanese city firebombed)
    Second column (Percentage of the city destroyed)
    Third column (Equivalent in size to the following American city)


    Yokohama 58 Cleveland
    Tokyo 51 New York
    Toyama 99 Chattanooga
    Nagoya 40 Los Angeles
    Osaka 35.1 Chicago
    Nishinomiya 11.9 Cambridge
    Siumonoseki 37.6 San Diego
    Kure 41.9 Toledo
    Kobe 55.7 Baltimore
    Omuta 35.8 Miami
    Wakayama 50 Salt Lake City
    Kawasaki 36.2 Portland
    Okayama 68.9 Long Beach
    Yawata 21.2 San Antonio
    Kagoshima 63.4 Richmond
    Amagasaki 18.9 Jacksonville
    Sasebo 41.4 Nashville
    Moh 23.3 Spokane
    Miyakonoio 26.5 Greensboro
    Nobeoka 25.2 Augusta
    Miyazaki 26.1 Davenport
    Hbe 20.7 Utica
    Saga 44.2 Waterloo
    Imabari 63.9 Stockton
    Matsuyama 64 Duluth
    Fukui 86 Evansville
    Tokushima 85.2 Ft. Wayne
    Sakai 48.2 Forth Worth
    Hachioji 65 Galveston
    Kumamoto 31.2 Grand Rapids
    Isezaki 56.7 Sioux Falls
    Takamatsu 67.5 Knoxville
    Akashi 50.2 Lexington
    Fukuyama 80.9 Macon
    Aomori 30 Montgomery
    Okazaki 32.2 Lincoln
    Oita 28.2 Saint Joseph
    Hiratsuka 48.4 Battle Creek
    Tokuyama 48.3 Butte
    Yokkichi 33.6 Charlotte
    Uhyamada 41.3 Columbus
    Ogaki 39.5 Corpus Christi
    Gifu 63.6 Des Moines
    Shizuoka 66.1 Oklahoma City
    Himeji 49.4 Peoria
    Fukuoka 24.1 Rochester
    Kochi 55.2 Sacramento
    Shimizu 42 San Jose
    Omura 33.1 Sante Fe
    Chiba 41 Savannah
    Ichinomiya 56.3 Sprinfield
    Nara 69.3 Boston
    Tsu 69.3 Topeka
    Kuwana 75 Tucson
    Toyohashi 61.9 Tulsa
    Numazu 42.3 Waco
    Chosi 44.2 Wheeling
    Kofu 78.6 South Bend
    Utsunomiya 43.7 Sioux City
    Mito 68.9 Pontiac
    Sendai 21.9 Omaha
    Tsuruga 65.1 Middleton
    Nagaoka 64.9 Madison
    Hitachi 72 Little Rock
    Kumagaya 55.1 Kenosha
    Hamamatsu 60.3 Hartford
    Maebashi 64.2 Wheeling
    Oh, that was all terrible. As I've stated before, deliberate targeting of civilians is tantamount to murder for me (at the very least, it's manslaughter). Still, the dropping of the A-bombs stands out as just insane. Possibly 150,000 people vaporized? Tens of thousands more burned, maimed, scarred, cancer-ridden? I just cannot comprehend the employment of nuclear weapons in any war.


    It's inconceivable for most ignorant Americans to imagine we can murder civilians, since they have this child like view of the world, where we're the good guys. They think it's a Hollywood Western, where we have white hats and the Indians are the bloodthirsty savages/communists/terrorists/fill in the blank. Which is the true largest genocide in the last millenia. Probably because they don't have holocaust museums, just racist sports mascots at sporting events. Redskins? That's like the Nazis naming a soccer team, the Kikes, after gassing them all.
    I never got that team name, either. I would argue that European treatment of the natives here isn't completely analogous to the Holocaust (like, there was never a meeting where the Head White Guys in Charge decided "Let's kill every last red person in this hemisphere"; and the natives were outrageously susceptible to accidental disease infection). Also, legitimate estimates of how many Native Americans were killed by genocide still pales in comparison with the number of Chinese and Tibetans killed in the 20th-Century. Obviously, there were far fewer Native Americans from 1500-1900 than there were Chinese from the 1940s through the 1980s, but you are talking something in the neighborhood of 13-15 million dead here vs. 30+ million in China. Either way, they are both atrocities (genocide vs. democide, if you believe in such a thing as democide).

    Your disdain for the simple Us vs. Them mentality is not unique to the United States. Have you ever spoken to someone who grew up in a Communist country and is old enough to remember the 1970s and before? The stuff they were taught happened in the United States is INSANE (and we still have biases against us; look at the history of the Olympics). Simplistic attitudes are always the most convenient for the ignorant.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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