User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 54

  1. #11
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    Er... some of what he says is probably speculation, but a lot of it is accurate.
    we fukin won boys

  2. #12
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Er... some of what he says is probably speculation, but a lot of it is accurate.
    Not really. First of all, slaughtering your own people counts, so the China and the Soviet Union are the masters of genocide in modern world history. Kinda blows that whole "there is far more human rights abuses under the guise of capitalism and democracy than socialism" out of water (and that is saying nothing about politically motivated assassinations by Putin and the Chinese Communist Party, closing down of dissident newspapers and websites, etc.) Furthermore, the United States has NOT killed more people from other countries than any other nation since WWII, although it's close. The countries involved in the Second Congo War have killed possibly tens of millions of each others' citizens in the last ten years.

    The World Bank and the IMF have their problems, but history has actually shown that poorer countries DO, in fact, become wealthier faster when instituting free trade and austerity policies. They get an unfair shake when richer countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, and EU nations wrench exceptions for farm susbidies. That is a definite weak point and major hypocrisy, but it still doesn't mean that global capitalism makes them poor. Not in any way, shape, or form.

    Taiwan and South Korea did institute some protectionist policies, but they are amongst the freer economies outside of North America and Europe, and are correspondingly rich. Singapore and Hong Kong were even freer, and have performed even better in international trade. That is a totally selective argument.

    China is no longer a "socialist" economy. In many ways, they are more capitalist than much of Europe. Lo and behold! Their economy is growing at an unbelievable rate.

    This is a bunch of nonsense.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #13
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ExTJ
    Posts
    1,377

    Default

    Since both of you are so sure of your information on economic growth and such, let's see some sources.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Here's a good article about Chinese GDP growth. Essentially, they're lying. It's not surprising. All authoritarian regimes lie because there's no transparency. There's just no way a Western nation (like the US) could lie about GDP and get away with it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,911

    Default

    You are right to an extent.

    China has a GDP of almost 7 trillion at this point, and still a relatively low GDP PC of 5300. However, it is important to note that their GDP growth rate is still alarmingly fast, which means that their GDP will be catching up to ours. And since their GDP growth rate is going much faster than their population growth rate, their GDP PC is improving rapidly.

    Putting the PRC's exagerations aside, it would still be true to say that China has found a path of rapid growth.

    See here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...s/ch.html#Econ
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    The US cannot achieve that level of growth anymore because it is so efficient. In a way, you could view economic growth potential as a logarithm. The closer you are to being maximally efficient, the less growth potential you have. Conversely, developing nations (which would be at the other end of the graph) typically have very high growth rates because they have so much ground to make up and the knowledge/technology/etc for them to reach first world status already exists (they don't have to innovate, they only need to imitate).

    My point being, I don't believe you can honestly declare China's economic growth to be a success story for command economies. If the article is accurate and China's GDP has been growing at half the published rate, they're growing at closer to 5%, than 10%. 5% isn't that good for a developing nation. 5% is only good if you're a nation that's already developed, like the US/UK/etc.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,911

    Default

    If you noticed by the under 7 trillion dollar GDP, the CIA tries to account for the real numbers. So, if the CIA says the growth rate is 10% or 11%, I'm going to say they are a pretty good source.

    I understand what you are saying about the developmental capablities of second-world nations. Regardless, it looks like China is economically growing with gusto, and it happens to have a partial command economy while doing it. For now, increasing it's GDP PC is what it needs to do. So I guess it can be called a success.

    As they say, China is currently the single biggest source of disapearing poverty.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Not really. First of all, slaughtering your own people counts, so the China and the Soviet Union are the masters of genocide in modern world history.
    I've already stated that they have killed more of their own people. My point is the little acknowledged fact, that the US has killed far more non citizens than any other government since WWII.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The World Bank and the IMF have their problems, but history has actually shown that poorer countries DO, in fact, become wealthier faster when instituting free trade and austerity policies. They get an unfair shake when richer countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, and EU nations wrench exceptions for farm susbidies. That is a definite weak point and major hypocrisy, but it still doesn't mean that global capitalism makes them poor. Not in any way, shape, or form.
    Not in any way shape or form? Name one country that ever benefited from IMF and world Bank programs... They are inherently designed to take advantage of any nation who takes their loans, to their detriment. This is obvious to anyone who understands their policies. Free trade is good, but they don't practice it all. Comparative advantage doesn't work they way it is exercised by these organizations and it's not meant to be. It's not a coincidence one of the architects of invasion of Indochina, Robert McNamara became World Bank president, after slaughtering millions of farmers via carpet bombing for a decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Taiwan and South Korea did institute some protectionist policies, but they are amongst the freer economies outside of North America and Europe, and are correspondingly rich. Singapore and Hong Kong were even freer, and have performed even better in international trade. That is a totally selective argument.
    It is not selective at all, they rejected IMF and World Bank conditions and gave up access, to their loans, which is the only reason they industrialized. If they listened to the IMF and World Bank they would have been screwed like countless other nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    China is no longer a "socialist" economy. In many ways, they are more capitalist than much of Europe. Lo and behold! Their economy is growing at an unbelievable rate.

    This is a bunch of nonsense.
    Yes they are. You don't know what socialism means. Just because they engage in international trade with a frenzy, doesn't mean their aren't socialist. Free trade has nothing to do with being socialist or capitalist. It's the degree to which their economy is influenced or controlled by the state. China had over half the world's GNP in the 18th century and they weren't capitalist then either.

  9. #19

    Default

    My other point is the that US, supposedly the shining light of democracy, capitalism and human rights HAVE killed far more non citizens than any other state since WWII, socialist or otherwise.

    Roughly:
    4 million in SE Asia
    1.5 million in the Middle East
    1 million in Latin America and the Caribbean
    500,000 to 1 million in Africa

    4,000 dead in the Trade Center? Oh yeah, Islam makes THEM blood thirsty terrorists. We're harbingers of joy, freedom and low interest loans (if you don't bother to read the fine print).

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    My other point is the that US, supposedly the shining light of democracy, capitalism and human rights HAVE killed far more non citizens than any other state since WWII, socialist or otherwise.

    Roughly:
    4 million in SE Asia
    1.5 million in the Middle East
    1 million in Latin America and the Caribbean
    500,000 in Africa
    I have my doubts about the accuracy of your figures. I think they're drastically inflated. But that point aside...so what? I don't think the numbers prove anything. The human race is violent. We're always going to be violent and you must be willing to use violence unless you're willing to play the prison bitch. Pacifism is only viable if someone else is willing to do the dirty work for you.

    I think you forgot Korea.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. The Great Global Warming Swindle
    By reason in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 07-08-2015, 12:04 PM
  2. Global Warming, Man made or Naturally caused (And other earth questions)
    By Didums in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 08-14-2008, 11:29 PM
  3. Global warming
    By Nocapszy in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 04-09-2008, 11:18 AM
  4. [MBTItm] Can you move from J to P?
    By Cindyrella in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 10-30-2007, 10:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO