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  1. #61
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Question - why have a black bond?
    Because there's a black guy perfect for the role, except for being black and plus him being black will piss off the racists.

    Alternatively, why not? If race shouldn't matter, as you said earlier in the thread, why's it important for any given fictional character to be their originally depicted color?

    (Aside from characters like Thor, where being anything but very white would introduce a whole new kind of suspension-of-disbelief problem.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Aren't we saying that you'd have to use a premade hero franchise to make it work with a black guy?
    Who's saying this? I'm not. Are you? Has anyone?

    I may have missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I mean, why not make a new hero franchise and leave that one as is?
    Because every few years, we have a new as-is anyway.

    Yes, in a perfect world Hollywood filmmakers all over the world would just make a ton of new and amazing supers movies with original and varied characters. Every character would remain unchanged forever, down to the eye-shade and to-the-centimeter height. But as we've discussed, the reality is that Hollywood can't/won't do that.

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Sean Connery definitely had the swagger, no question. Daniel Craig is hot in a more cerebral way, he has to be. He is very attractive to me, maybe because he doesn't have swagger, and he isn't pretty.

    That's hot.
    Honestly, if you read the books (and I don't know who here actually has, although I did in my early 20's), the literary Bond is kind of stoic and kind of a thug. The movies changed and stylized his character. So Craig's portrayal seems a bit more accurate to the books, to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #63
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    You mean like...Dread Agent Bond?
    Really, is there anything in life a clip from The Princess Bride can't fix?!

    Yes, precisely that! The only person who'd ever TRULY need to know is the director lady.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Really, is there anything in life a clip from The Princess Bride can't fix?!
    Lol, no. No there is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Yes, precisely that! The only person who'd ever TRULY need to know is the director lady.
    Speaking of characters who have already changed gender, I fell in love with Judy Dench as M when I watched her Cold War rant from Casino Royale.

    Spoiler for those who haven't seen Skyfall:

  5. #65
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, if you read the books (and I don't know who here actually has, although I did in my early 20's), the literary Bond is kind of stoic and kind of a thug. The movies changed and stylized his character. So Craig's portrayal seems a bit more accurate to the books, to me.
    I've read a few of the novels, and can attest that no film Bond I've ever seen really matches the literary Bond. Like all characters, he's a product of his author's era. One short story that sticks out in my mind, though I can't remember the title...


  6. #66
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Because there's a black guy perfect for the role, except for being black and plus him being black will piss off the racists.

    Alternatively, why not? If race shouldn't matter, as you said earlier in the thread, why's it important for any given fictional character to be their originally depicted color?

    (Aside from characters like Thor, where being anything but very white would introduce a whole new kind of suspension-of-disbelief problem.)
    So Thor can't be black because you have a preconceived idea that a mythical God is white but Bond can be because to your mind one is a more solid requirement than the other. Doesn't that seem a little bit based on your opinion and not really something to weigh in as a stick with? Personally I don't think Bond works unless you're going for the whole British thing which historically is not based on region as much as the details. Certainly this Idris guy ain't no Bond to my eyes. Not from what I've seen him in. Sounds more like a cookie cutter response where he's a black guy from England with a British accent. So your requirements are English with a British accent. Hence to my eyes you're just simply doing positive racism by putting in a black guy to redress some balance instead of because he's the man for the job. Same as anyone who'd advocate putting a small guy in the role or a girl.

    If you want a black bond type role or a female one, do stories of 006 or something. Don't just jump up and down shouting racist because people think that your change to the character won't work for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Who's saying this? I'm not. Are you? Has anyone?

    I may have missed it.
    It just smacks of a cut and shut job. Take an established character and shoe horn in token black guy to appeal to people's paranoia over equality. Surely equality is when you have a black hero from day one like blade. Never read the book or even looked if there is one but that hero is a black guy. I'd have the same problems if they suddenly changed it to a white guy the same as you'd have problems with a black thor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Yes, in a perfect world Hollywood filmmakers all over the world would just make a ton of new and amazing supers movies with original and varied characters. Every character would remain unchanged forever, down to the eye-shade and to-the-centimeter height. But as we've discussed, the reality is that Hollywood can't/won't do that.
    Nope. Profits stay with what people expect. They don't generally like change, hence why everything becomes formulaic after a while. You could make the argument that in such a system the most viable way to start to achieve this equality being sought after to start to do these things but that still riles me as much as the women only shortlists for positions. What's the point of equality if it's granted by the establishment being nice whilst we're watching? Does that really give long term stability or should we be aiming to get rid of the blocks head on?

    Also it kind of states flat out that people want everything to be made into a forced equalised state. Surely their current behaviour says not. Bond is still popular and I don't recall any mass outcry from movie goers that the Avengers film had nothing but white people as the superheroes.

    Having said that it would be nice if they expanded the roles a bit. The guy in winter soldier and warmachine. Kind of felt like sidekick roles when they didn't need to be, excepting for those who don't like change and want the movie to be all about the guy in the title role of course.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #67
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    White people need to chill the eff out. Minorities have been deliberately excluded from superhero films (and mainstream film in general) since forever, so I don't want to hear bitching about it when they're deliberately included. I understand fanboys wanting actors to fulfil the physical description of a character as they imagined but there is an in-build tendency for people to see that character as white - it's a normative presumption. And there's something so messed up with people treating superhero 'genre' as the last bastion of white privilege in movies. It's time to wake up and live in the real world. Anyway, minorities need heroes too.

    Not a superhero franchise (but pretty much is), but the rumour is that Idris Elba may be cast as the next Bond. The guy totally fulfils every James Bond quality so I don't see why his race should be a factor. I remember people making a fuss about Daniel Craig playing the part because they were horrified by the fact he's blond. I don't hear any complaints now. Everyone just needs to give themselves a chance to adjust to change.
    There were two problems with Daniel Craig:

    1) He's not Sean Connery
    2) He's in his mid-40s in real life, and can't quite do all the physical stuff.

    That being said, the reboot of the series, returning to a grittier, more nails-for-breakfast Bond is much closer to the spirit of the original books, than the CGI-ridden, gadget-laden fluff the Bond franchise had become. And the partial and successive reboots -- Felix Leiter being fed to the sharks in the one Bond film, etc....

    One suggestion I'd heard, which *would* allow a black Bond (subject to kyuuei's "5x better" remark), is to have someone telling another character during the film that Bond, being a 007 agent, is expendable; and it is part of the mystique to attract new double-0 agents, and to preserve anonymity, that each double-0 is given a code name, which remains the same no matter who assumes that slot....

    All that being said, Craig is the second-best of the bond actors.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  8. #68
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    I was under the assumption that the original version of James Bond was more like the Sterling Archer in the archer series. I guess Craig is doing justice to the novels if he is playing the original character. But then again would Bond have been this famous and long lasting if he Broccoli didn't change the character a bit?



    When I was small I never understood what's the deal with Sean Connery was, especially with regards to his Bond impersonation. But now I know it and feel it. Daniel Craig's version sucks ass compared to it. There is NO swagger. Bond has swagger; maybe not in the novels but to movies goers for the past 50 years he does.

    ---

    There are quite a few Indian Superheroes in South Asian cinema. However, I don't recall any in Hollywood, not even as a main character. The closest Hollywood has come to in creating a main protagonist (if not a Hero) is Kumar from Harold and Kumar.

    I being South Asian was/is flattered by Kumar and frankly believes he dwarfs any South Asian movie protagonist. He is so awesome!






    Ladies, Bond = Swagger, not HOT under a T-Shirt.

    Passacaglia sorry if I got your gender wrong .
    The key to Connery was twofold:
    1) the shit-eating grin where he'd occasionally "make eye contact" with the audience in mid-scene as if to say, "Yeah, I know, I can't believe this either. But isn't it *fun* ?"
    2) the witty banter, more prevalent, and MUCH better done, in the early Bond movies.

    E.g. in Diamonds are Forever, where he meets up with Vegas groupie Plenty O'Toole at the gambling table:

    P. "I'm Plenty"
    Bond: "I'm sure you are."
    P. "Plenty O'Toole"
    Bond: (aside) "Named after your father, no doubt."
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  9. #69
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    So Thor can't be black because you have a preconceived idea that a mythical God is white but Bond can be because to your mind one is a more solid requirement than the other. Doesn't that seem a little bit based on your opinion and not really something to weigh in as a stick with? Personally I don't think Bond works unless you're going for the whole British thing which historically is not based on region as much as the details. Certainly this Idris guy ain't no Bond to my eyes. Not from what I've seen him in. Sounds more like a cookie cutter response where he's a black guy from England with a British accent. So your requirements are English with a British accent. Hence to my eyes you're just simply doing positive racism by putting in a black guy to redress some balance instead of because he's the man for the job. Same as anyone who'd advocate putting a small guy in the role or a girl.
    On the contrary, black Thor is an apparently strange concept, but not unexplainable. IIRC, his friends in the movie already include a woman and a couple of non-white guys. Alternatively, in a movie where Thor is an actual mythological god rather than an alien from a distant advanced planet, I could see an interesting storyline about Thor being black. A shamanic ritual goes awry, and an African god named Thol gets suddenly pulled into the Norse world. In trying to find a way back home, he befriends Loki, who helpfully gives Thol the more Nordic-sounding name of Thor and changes his skin to a white tone as a 'favor' which allows Thor to more easily interact with Norse gods and mortals alike. (And Loki can always revoke his 'favor' should Thor become inconvenient.) I can see a lot of layers and appeal to many people in this sort of story.

    Anyway, I mentioned Thor to preempt questions along the lines of "Well, what about characters who exist in a time and place where being a non-white actor just doesn't make sense?" Which I can see as a reasonable objection to off-color actors being cast in certain roles. Not that Hollywood is consistent about casting color-appropriate actors -- Prince of Persia, anyone? -- but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If you want a black bond type role or a female one, do stories of 006 or something. Don't just jump up and down shouting racist because people think that your change to the character won't work for them.
    Sure, I'd watch a 006 film. Or a spin-off about Leiter. But how likely is that to happen?

    Also, who's jumping up and down? The filter of the internet may make it seem that I am, but I assure you that from my end it looks like you're jumping up and down. Or maybe just gasping-with-hand-over-mouth in a very Violet Crawley fashion.

    Don't get me wrong; having a very specific image in your head about how character X looks doesn't make you or anyone a bad person. I just find it incredible how this becomes a source of righteous indignation, and how people seem to allow this image to dictate what they can or can't enjoy. 'Smacks of this,' 'shoe horn that,' 'paranoia,' 'riles me'...well, it all sounds like a bit much. I guess you can't help how you feel though.

    Personally, I just want to see a good movie, and I don't much care which actor gets cast in which specific role so long as they're a good actor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Nope. Profits stay with what people expect. They don't generally like change, hence why everything becomes formulaic after a while. You could make the argument that in such a system the most viable way to start to achieve this equality being sought after to start to do these things but that still riles me as much as the women only shortlists for positions. What's the point of equality if it's granted by the establishment being nice whilst we're watching? Does that really give long term stability or should we be aiming to get rid of the blocks head on?
    Yeah, people do seem to want what they expect, regardless of what they say. Or maybe it's that the minority who want change are naturally more vocal than the happy majority...until 'too much' change happens, at which point the majority becomes vocal.

    I think that you raise a good question about which solution creates long-term stability. I'm sure there were Americans asking the same question when President Eisenhower forced the integration of nine black students into Little Rock Central School in Arkansas in 1954. Sixty years later, only the most spiteful of racists blink an eye at kids of all colors going to any school -- and those who do are usually smart enough not to let on -- but more subtle racism is still an issue. Would racism be more or less prevalent if nations on either side of the pond had stuck to the 'separate but equal' philosophy? I suspect it'd be more prevalent, but the answer is of course impossible to know definitively.

    With respect to Hollywood, I don't see where the 'force' issue is coming from. Fans and activists use social media to tell the Hollywood high-ups what they want to see, and then, to be completely cynical, those high-ups use their best judgment toward the goal of making the highest profit. This isn't even an affirmative action issue, where anyone is being legally obligated to do anything -- as far as I know. But maybe fans see activism as 'forcing' Hollywood's hand?

  10. #70
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I promise you, I'm a whole hell of a lot less "butt hurt" than I may otherwise appear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    I think that you raise a good question about which solution creates long-term stability. I'm sure there were Americans asking the same question when President Eisenhower forced the integration of nine black students into Little Rock Central School in Arkansas in 1954. Sixty years later, only the most spiteful of racists blink an eye at kids of all colors going to any school -- and those who do are usually smart enough not to let on -- but more subtle racism is still an issue. Would racism be more or less prevalent if nations on either side of the pond had stuck to the 'separate but equal' philosophy? I suspect it'd be more prevalent, but the answer is of course impossible to know definitively.

    With respect to Hollywood, I don't see where the 'force' issue is coming from. Fans and activists use social media to tell the Hollywood high-ups what they want to see, and then, to be completely cynical, those high-ups use their best judgment toward the goal of making the highest profit. This isn't even an affirmative action issue, where anyone is being legally obligated to do anything -- as far as I know. But maybe fans see activism as 'forcing' Hollywood's hand?
    The problem is that the calls for greater equality just seem to end up in some abrupt changes in direction so instead of 006 or a more American offshoot about Felix you get people wanting to change a character which kinda has a type set no matter how non pc it sounds.

    Of course this is ignoring another part of the problem is which is that we're in a democracy. If people didn't like the movies then they wouldn't go. If Hollywood's a list wasn't full of white guys then you'd get more variety. If the majority support the current setup then why, on a democracy, are we looking at altering it? Unless of course we're saying that an absolute democracy isn't the best idea, which would be interesting but certainly not surprising. Also how many "non white" people want to be in films? Is it proportional or are we responding in some knee jerk fashion to a guilty complex handed down from our forebears?

    Increasingly it seems to me that no matter the intentions, focusing on a person's creed, colour, nation or background instead of who they are right now as an individual just continues the cycle of using such factors to divide what is the human race. If course we'll not lose it for hundreds of years but we do still seem to be staring at it whether that be by the tenants of racism or reformism.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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