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  1. #221
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This isn't about me. These aren't my ideas; supply side economics is the most vindicated and successful economic theory in the 2nd half of the 20th century. There are literally hundreds of examples where lowering taxes and cutting regulations have turned economies around and I've already presented over a dozen examples in this thread. Dozens of nations have cut income taxes and corporate taxes because they understood that Reaganomics works. I'm merely presenting to people what they should've already learned in school.
    And this is why you fail to convince people. You haven't got a clue when it comes to a discussion.
    I don't mean that as a jibe designed to provoke a response. That's my honest conclusion and if I weren't an INTP I would say it was a logical one too (being who I am I'd want to add in a whole load of complications, caveats and so forth before I'd be happy).

    Seriously, you're going no where with this until you learn how to deal with humans. Both yourself and others.

    As to your arguments, without sorting out any form of discussion, they are asinine and unconnected to reality.
    Why do you change the nature of your argument? For the same reason that a twelve year old who extols the value of logic to a fourth year old loses the fight even though the fourth year old potentially already uses it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  2. #222
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    And this is why you fail to convince people.
    I can't convince irrational people, no offense intended.

    As to your arguments, without sorting out any form of discussion, they are asinine and unconnected to reality.
    The argument I present is this: if you punish people who run businesses with a minimum wage, with high taxes, or with lots of regulations, you'll get less business. If you make it easier for people to run businesses, you'll get more of it. It's the concept of positive and negative reinforcement. Obviously, I don't think these are asinine ideas. Most people (who are rational) would agree with me.

    If you pay people to not work (like President Obama), you'll get more people who don't work. Incentivize joblessness and you get more joblessness. Pretty simple concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Why do you change the nature of your argument?
    Not sure what you are referring to. I've been consistent the entire thread.

    I'll add another argument: There isn't a single example of a successful socialist state. There is also no such thing as a great socialist and don't say Einstein. Einstein wasn't great because of socialism. By contrast, I can name a thousand great capitalists -- people who became great men and women because of capitalism.

    Absent any evidence in favor of socialism and deluged with evidence to the contrary, the only reasons why someone would prefer socialism is either ignorance, insanity, or stupidity. Again, no offense intended.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  3. #223
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    @Tellenbach, you're not entering into a conversation, merely stating things as if they are self evident and unconnected to anything which may form a negative. You, sir, are a zealot. You cannot conceive of how you may be wrong unless things are "stupid". Until you gain some respect for the points made in opposition to your thinking and a capacity to see why people may honestly come to those points without being stupid or in support of an untenable position. Ergo there is no point making an effort to engage you on this subject unless you change your tack.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  4. #224
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    @Tellenbach, you're not entering into a conversation, merely stating things as if they are self evident and unconnected to anything which may form a negative. You, sir, are a zealot. You cannot conceive of how you may be wrong unless things are "stupid". Until you gain some respect for the points made in opposition to your thinking and a capacity to see why people may honestly come to those points without being stupid or in support of an untenable position. Ergo there is no point making an effort to engage you on this subject unless you change your tack.
    I dont think its zealotry so much as evangelism or proselytizing.

    To true believers market forces have the character of positive science or hard facts, which to anyone else who is an impartial observer is a little hard to fathom.

    Although you know the saying about for the non-believer no amount of evidence is sufficient and for the believer no amount of evidence is necessary, most people fit one or the other camp on most issues.
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  5. #225
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think its zealotry so much as evangelism or proselytizing.

    To true believers market forces have the character of positive science or hard facts, which to anyone else who is an impartial observer is a little hard to fathom.

    Although you know the saying about for the non-believer no amount of evidence is sufficient and for the believer no amount of evidence is necessary, most people fit one or the other camp on most issues.
    I've always found both sides to be common in their lack of self understanding. Both are believers, which is fine, without sound reasoning. This by itself is not a particular issue unless the person rationalises their thinking to persuade themselves that they are being logical, reasonable, wise, whatever. Then it's what I call zeal. I can see your point though. Trying to sell other people on a beat up old car as the perfect mode of transportation because that's how you've been defending not being able to get a decent car for years makes you a delusional person.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  6. #226
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You, sir, are a zealot.
    Very inaccurate assessment. I'm extremely open-minded. Just show me the evidence and supply-side economists have volumes of evidence in their favor. Socialists have none, zippo, nada.

    merely stating things as if they are self evident and unconnected to anything which may form a negative
    It is self-evident. When you punish a child for playing with matches, he's less likely to play with matches. When you punish any behavior, you'll get less of it. When you reward a behavior, you'll get more of that. Economics really is that simple.

    Until you gain some respect for the points made in opposition to your thinking and a capacity to see why people may honestly come to those points without being stupid or in support of an untenable position.
    I've seen no points made or any contrary evidence offered in this thread; I confess that I do view socialists as irrational people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    To true believers market forces have the character of positive science or hard facts, which to anyone else who is an impartial observer is a little hard to fathom.
    You may call it faith but my belief is based on a ton of empirical evidence. I issue the challenge: show me how raising the minimum wage has reduced poverty; show me how raising taxes has created prosperity or redistributing wealth is a good thing. Where is the evidence?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #227
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Very inaccurate assessment.
    Bzzt... I'm sorry but my bullshit-o-meter just took a dive off the table trying to display the levels it just detected.

    "Socialists have none, zippo, nada."
    Conclusion without involvement of the conversation.
    "I've seen no points made or any contrary evidence offered in this thread; I confess that I do view socialists as irrational people."
    Another conclusion reached having had no interaction with any source but your head.

    An open minded man would be a wise man as to assume you know is folly.

    Two things to consider.
    1. A wise man knows that he knows nothing.
    2. Better to keep your silence and let all others assume you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Some method gave you two ears and one mouth. I think you're inefficiently deploying your resources.

    You've made no effort to think along hr lines nor lines looking after the populace without consideration to the businesses profit line. You didn't even engage when I challenged you about how many restaurants hadn't gone but despite the new wage implications.

    You fail to back up your assertions except with churlish statistics which only provide circumstantial evidence which you claim is backed up by the assumptions you have made.

    One thing you are not is open minded. You are as close to myopia as any man alive.

    I could add "no offence" to those statements but I'd consider it more of an insult to think you'd accept such behaviour. That being said I aim to make a dent in your mental armour to hopefully release your brain to the air around it and free it from the prison you've built your self confidence is something I consider as a secondary at this point and that's not something I do lightly.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #228
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    "Socialists have none, zippo, nada."
    Conclusion without involvement of the conversation.
    Prove me wrong. Where are all the great socialists? Where are all the great men and women who have changed the trajectory of our species for the better? For every name you come up with I'll name 5 capitalists. I'll start.

    1. Thomas Edison
    2. Henry Ford
    3. Andrew Carnegie
    4. John D. Rockefeller
    5. Steve Jobs

    Go
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #229
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Prove me wrong. Where are all the great socialists? Where are all the great men and women who have changed the trajectory of our species for the better? For every name you come up with I'll name 5 capitalists. I'll start.

    1. Thomas Edison
    2. Henry Ford
    3. Andrew Carnegie
    4. John D. Rockefeller
    5. Steve Jobs

    Go
    To what possible point?
    Say I come up with fifty, you'll trawl history and find another hundred, that's what ISTJs do. Even if you can't find as many you will simply move on to questioning whether their contribution was actually that great and whether my analysis if their politics is correct or not. It's pointless.

    I could start the ball rolling by pulling apart your examples first before you can do likewise to mine. Again, to what end?

    How many people need to come up to you and basically say "I think you're talking out your arse" before doubt creeps in? Ten? A hundred? I suppose you'd like to say that it wouldn't matter because your arguments are strong and they just can't counter them.

    If I say the sky is pink, prove me wrong. You can't because I haven't hinged the argument on anything so there's nothing to discuss. The only logical response is "that's nice dear" and move on.

    I think it might be best if that's what I did. You obviously only started to thread to make a statement and then just keep restating it. Read it now, can we move on?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  10. #230
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Say I come up with fifty
    I doubt you can find even 5; that's the point.

    How many people need to come up to you and basically say "I think you're talking out your arse" before doubt creeps in?
    I'm moved by empirical evidence, not by personal opinion.

    I could start the ball rolling by pulling apart your examples first before you can do likewise to mine.
    Go for it. I doubt you can do it; that's what I've been asking for....for someone to tear apart the evidence.

    I think it might be best if that's what I did.
    I thank you for participating but I'm pointing out that you've provided no evidence to counter any arguments I've presented.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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