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  1. #211
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You posit that statistic A proves proposition B because you can't see how it could not.
    That's because I recognize that human behavior can be modified by actions that incentivize and punish. Simple logic really. If you punish economic behavior (with high taxes), you'll get less of that behavior. If you reward economic behavior (lowering taxes), you'll get more of that behavior.

    A simple math problem for you:

    A restauranteur has 2 full time workers currently making $12/hour. How much additional money would he have to spend if the minimum wage were increased to $15/hour?

    Answer: At 80 hours per week for the 2 employees, that's 4,160 hours per year. The minimum wage adds $3 per hour in additional expenses. That's $3 x 4160 or $12,480 in additional costs. Not an insignficant expense. Now do you see how minimum wages kill businesses? If this guy's profit margin is $30,000 and you force him to spend an additional $12,480, he's not going to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Yup. Absolutely no agenda in that at all. The url is laughable.
    That's a direct quote from the owner, but perhaps you know more about the business than the owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    This is simplistic thinking and nothing to do with whether C works or not.
    It's simplistic only if you reject the notion that certain policies encourage economic growth and other policies hurt economic growth. Seriously, if you think this, why bother supporting any economic ideology?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Just a quick shout-out to all the good folks out there trying to change the minds guts of fanatics: We appreciate your futile work.
    Likes Hard, Xander liked this post

  3. #213
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    You're welcome, but I don't like to call people fanatics because it might their feelings.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #214
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That's because I recognize that human behavior can be modified by actions that incentivize and punish. Simple logic really. If you punish economic behavior (with high taxes), you'll get less of that behavior. If you reward economic behavior (lowering taxes), you'll get more of that behavior.

    A simple math problem for you:

    A restauranteur has 2 full time workers currently making $12/hour. How much additional money would he have to spend if the minimum wage were increased to $15/hour?

    Answer: At 80 hours per week for the 2 employees, that's 4,160 hours per year. The minimum wage adds $3 per hour in additional expenses. That's $3 x 4160 or $12,480 in additional costs. Not an insignficant expense. Now do you see how minimum wages kill businesses? If this guy's profit margin is $30,000 and you force him to spend an additional $12,480, he's not going to make it.
    So his business was weak and new market forces (external admittedly) made him go under. You would prefer protectionist policies for businesses making them falsely competitive?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That's a direct quote from the owner, but perhaps you know more about the business than the owner.
    Labelling people with political affiliations just seems a little assumptive. Even if true it shows that the comment is flavoured politically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It's simplistic only if you reject the notion that certain policies encourage economic growth and other policies hurt economic growth. Seriously, if you think this, why bother supporting any economic ideology?
    I don't think that but were I to make the assertion that a policy had led to a direct effect then I would make more of an effort to come up with a new idea. I certainly wouldn't roll out a previously generated idea which seems to have as many flaws if not more. I would hope this brain of mine would come up with another alternative.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #215
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    So his business was weak and new market forces (external admittedly) made him go under.
    Yes, and there are thousands of "weak" businesses barely getting by. The average profit margin for a $700,000 restaurant is only $28,000. How much more do you want from these guys?

    Even if true it shows that the comment is flavoured politically.
    Why wouldn't it be politically flavored? The minimum wage is pushed by one political party.

    I certainly wouldn't roll out a previously generated idea which seems to have as many flaws if not more. I would hope this brain of mine would come up with another alternative.
    And what would your alternative ideas be? In the case of the bookstore owner above, he lives in San Francisco; for San Francisco, an alternative idea would be to lower the minimum wage and reduce regulations; that would be something new.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #216
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    And what would your alternative ideas be? In the case of the bookstore owner above, he lives in San Francisco; for San Francisco, an alternative idea would be to lower the minimum wage and reduce regulations; that would be something new.
    Okay, let's simplify.

    Expand upon your suggestions and look at the possible negatives. This is assuming you don't believe in perfect solutions. What new kinds of abuse would you be permitting? How could it all go wrong?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #217
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Expand upon your suggestions and look at the possible negatives.
    Shouldn't the correct question be: Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Why yes, they do!! Alrighty then, full speed ahead.

    This is assuming you don't believe in perfect solutions.
    Baby steps. No need to chase perfection. Slowly implement policies that work and eliminate policies that don't work. Eventually, even Detroit will see improvement.

    What new kinds of abuse would you be permitting?
    Americans would get even fatter as they gorge on imported wagyu steaks and French pastries. We'd have to import foreign doctors and nurses which would result in lower standard of care the world over.

    How could it all go wrong?
    We might not be able to curb the mad scramble for our borders as millions of immigrants leave their socialist hell-holes. The global brain drain would hurt other nations and we'd have to give them aid just to keep them alive.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  8. #218
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Shouldn't the correct question be: Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Why yes, they do!! Alrighty then, full speed ahead.



    Baby steps. No need to chase perfection. Slowly implement policies that work and eliminate policies that don't work. Eventually, even Detroit will see improvement.



    Americans would get even fatter as they gorge on imported wagyu steaks and French pastries. We'd have to import foreign doctors and nurses which would result in lower standard of care the world over.



    We might not be able to curb the mad scramble for our borders as millions of immigrants leave their socialist hell-holes. The global brain drain would hurt other nations and we'd have to give them aid just to keep them alive.
    This is why this conversation is not worth having. You don't even entertain the concept that you are in the wrong or that your idea is anything less than the perfect next step.

    I'm sure you are happy in your certainty but as a man who follows socratic thinking, I cannot in good faith support your concept.

    Hopefully you were being jovial and will respond in ernest later.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  9. #219
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Freedom works, you can argue about whether it is because of use or abuse or because of monopoly or competition but the market is an encumbrance or inhibitor of freedom today.

    The invisible hand has been long ago replaced with the all too visible hand of private, wealthy, special interests who are impervious to democracy and consumer sovereignty which were once believed, through the medium of the market, to be capable of being tamed.

    Market capitalism exists now as a lie, a brilliant one like the lottery or winning at dice, craps or roulette on the next turn or at least the next turn after that but a lie none the less, when its not a lie its an ideology used to full effect by selfish elites.

    I think its alright suggesting that there's class struggle, war, violent competition, that life has no rules and we are all subject to fortuna or caprice and there's no much hope of it ever being any different or any better or even being moderated very much but the pretense and bright shinning lie which is capitalism and free market populism is something which makes me sick. And angry.
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  10. #220
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You don't even entertain the concept that you are in the wrong or that your idea is anything less than the perfect next step.
    This isn't about me. These aren't my ideas; supply side economics is the most vindicated and successful economic theory in the 2nd half of the 20th century. There are literally hundreds of examples where lowering taxes and cutting regulations have turned economies around and I've already presented over a dozen examples in this thread. Dozens of nations have cut income taxes and corporate taxes because they understood that Reaganomics works. I'm merely presenting to people what they should've already learned in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    the market is an encumbrance or inhibitor of freedom today.
    Thomas Jefferson thinks that government is the primary encumbrance to personal liberty:

    "Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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