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  1. #201
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    The cost of these devices is significant and the maintenance isn't cheap either. It's just not feasible to do without public backing.
    Here in the USA, we have dialysis clinics; the patient goes to the clinic to get the treatment. They don't need the device at home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Then performance manage the public sector.
    I don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, many government employees are in unions and very difficult to discipline, let alone fire. Schools couldn't fire a pedophile teacher here in California; the school district had to pay him to resign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Oh... You were being serious. Well... I'm not sure what to say now.
    Haven't you been paying attention? Every point I've presented is backed with ample real world evidence.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #202
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Here in the USA, we have dialysis clinics; the patient goes to the clinic to get the treatment. They don't need the device at home.
    So if they wanted to get out if beds they could go to the hospital?

    I'm talking the kinds of aids which lift people physically from say a bed to a wheelchair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, many government employees are in unions and very difficult to discipline, let alone fire. Schools couldn't fire a pedophile teacher here in California; the school district had to pay him to resign.
    Unions are dealt with by strong HR. You don't try to get rid of them, you work with them. In that example you point out that keeping the person puts a risk of the school that parents may withdraw their children and if that happens the school will close and all of their members will lose their jobs.

    As for sacking someone, if you can't manage to get enough evidence together for a decent case then yes you should have to pay. Innocent unless proven guilty is a principle that's been around for a while now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Haven't you been paying attention? Every point I've presented is backed with ample real world evidence.
    And you haven't listened to a word said to you much less considered it's validity. No amount of information you post up will serve to mitigate that kind of ignorance.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
    Likes Tellenbach liked this post

  3. #203
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    I'm talking the kinds of aids which lift people physically from say a bed to a wheelchair.
    We don't have that here. We use nurse's assistants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    And you haven't listened to a word said to you much less considered it's validity.
    I have considered every idea and possibility presented; they just don't hold up. The beauty of capitalism and the free market is in its ability to harness human greed for the common good. In order to acquire wealth, the capitalist must cater to the wishes of his customers.

    "Because the individual cannot prosper in a market economy without understanding and appealing to the needs and wants of others, and because the cultivation of altruism promotes the effective operation of markets, the market economy...also fosters empathy and benevolence, yet without destroying individuality." Richard Posner
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #204
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately?

    Last month—and particularly last week— Seattle foodies were downcast as the blows kept coming: Queen Anne’s Grub closed February 15. Pioneer Square’s Little Uncle shut down February 25. Shanik’s Meeru Dhalwala announced that it will close March 21. Renée Erickson’s Boat Street Café will shutter May 30 after 17 years with her at the helm
    And for Seattle restaurateurs recently, there is also another key consideration. Though none of our local departing/transitioning restaurateurs who announced their plans last month have elaborated on the issue, another major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike to $15 per hour.
    He estimates that a common budget breakdown among sustaining Seattle restaurants so far has been the following: 36 percent of funds are devoted to labor, 30 percent to food costs and 30 percent go to everything else (all other operational costs). The remaining 4 percent has been the profit margin, and as a result, in a $700,000 restaurant, he estimates that the average restauranteur in Seattle has been making $28,000 a year.
    Ouch. You eek out a 4% profit and the government wants you to spend even more on labor costs. This is Seattle, a leftist run city. There are no Republicans or conservatives involved. I'm sure some of these restauranteurs voted for the $15/hour minimum wage; now they lose their business because of it. I'm amused more than anything. This is a lesson that's been taught thousands of times but is never learned by some people.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #205
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I have considered every idea and possibility presented; they just don't hold up. The beauty of capitalism and the free market is in its ability to harness human greed for the common good. In order to acquire wealth, the capitalist must cater to the wishes of his customers.

    "Because the individual cannot prosper in a market economy without understanding and appealing to the needs and wants of others, and because the cultivation of altruism promotes the effective operation of markets, the market economy...also fosters empathy and benevolence, yet without destroying individuality." Richard Posner
    And yet you still believe in a benevolent dictator. Your faith is admirable but your inability to see past this is not something I would support.

    The issue is you propose that once a person has the power to mould the market that they won't do everything in their power to make it better for themselves and that this power won't end up in them taking from others to do so.

    What you should consider is that by capping the governments involvement that you are limiting the populaces input into the market. Perhaps you see it that the only people who should affect a market are it's consumers but those opposed to secondary smoke inhalation may wish to disagree. How do you ensure that no market unduly impinges on peoples freedoms? Surely you'd need some kind of body to represent them, ie the government.

    Like I said, the logical outcome is not a free market but a review of the current controls in place. This isn't radical thinking as you propose but one about margins. Perhaps if you didn't go so wholesale for an ism/ist then people would more easily see your points and consider them.

    For example, saying that the minimum wage is wrong and should be abolished will get you no where as it is part of how people expect to be treated. There should be a minimum to ensure that in my next pay review I can't have my wages slashed and need to find a job fast, which in the current job market, which is labour rich, isn't simple. It took me 11 months to find a job. That's 11 months of living off my wife's earnings and our savings. To know that this can't happen again at the drop of a hat is comforting and more secure. Because of this security I feel more confident living with less in savings and more spending money which means I'm putting more back in to the economy and less into a jar at home. Confidence is what buoys markets not freedom. Freedom is risky. Freedom can break you.

    To give a risky example, gun control. I'm happy if I can own a gun, multiple guns. I'm a sensible person who has a rational mind and I'm not prone to violence. I know what I would do with a gun. Other's having guns? Not so happy. They might do something stupid or vicious. They aren't controlled by my sense of virtue or justice. The same goes for all power. Hence to keep most people happy (I'd like to think I'm not that weird) you need some form of control on what people can and can not do. Ergo rules are introduced. Just as with all rules systems, the rules are there to deal with the outliers, they shouldn't affect most decent people. Hence my challenge to you is, why aren't these staff being paid well enough to make such laws unnecessary? Why is $15/hr such a hardship to bear? What would you pay them? $10? $5? Perhaps what you should think on is whether with a $15/hr rate that the waiting staff should put their tips into a jar and share it out amongst the staff as their wages should be better off as a baseline and less dependant on tips from customers. That way everyone in the company (who after all did all contribute to the service offered) benefit equally and perhaps they can all profit from it. My other challenge would be that with no minimum wage in place, what kind of restaurant would offer a higher wage? Who would knowingly raise the prices on their food to cover greater salaries in a competitive marketplace?

    Enough with the stats. They only tell you of what was counted and any "conclusion" drawn from them is only as good as the data itself and most often the data does not support the conclusions you're making, they only makes them more probable. Read the other way around and you're showing that businesses which aren't competitive are being shown up because they can't afford to pay their staff a decent wage and so when they are forced to, they break.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #206
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    The issue is you propose that once a person has the power to mould the market that they won't do everything in their power to make it better for themselves and that this power won't end up in them taking from others to do so.
    Of course this happens. Microsoft bundles software (Internet Explorer) with its operating system and Warren Buffett supports the estate tax because small businesses would be forced to sell and he'd gobble up the competition. I'm saying that monopolies can't be maintained for long; we now have Chrome, Opera, Safari, Firefox, etc. despite Microsoft's attempt to maintain a monopoly.

    How do you ensure that no market unduly impinges on peoples freedoms? Surely you'd need some kind of body to represent them, ie the government.
    Legislation enforcement could be privatized. Pollution control, food safety, and even crime remediation can be handled by private companies.

    For example, saying that the minimum wage is wrong and should be abolished will get you no where as it is part of how people expect to be treated.
    I know that people have come to expect many things but they're wrong. The minimum wage is a job killer and it hurts those who are most vulnerable....the unskilled worker.

    There should be a minimum to ensure that in my next pay review I can't have my wages slashed and need to find a job fast, which in the current job market, which is labour rich, isn't simple.
    Get rid of the minimum wage and you'd have no problem finding a job because there'd be more job opportunities.

    Other's having guns? Not so happy. They might do something stupid or vicious. They aren't controlled by my sense of virtue or justice.
    The problem with gun control is it only stops the law abiding folks from owning guns; criminals aren't going to give up their guns. Any ban on a desired product and you'll see a black market for it.

    Hence my challenge to you is, why aren't these staff being paid well enough to make such laws unnecessary? Why is $15/hr such a hardship to bear? What would you pay them? $10? $5? Perhaps what you should think on is whether with a $15/hr rate that the waiting staff should put their tips into a jar and share it out amongst the staff as their wages should be better off as a baseline and less dependant on tips from customers.
    Because these businesses are also hit with corporate income taxes and they're hit with Social Security and Medicare taxes, property taxes, and Obamacare taxes. The $15 hour minimum wage is already killing small businesses. Heritage Foundation did a study and determined that a $15/hour minimum wage would result in a 77% decline in profits and a 38% increase in food prices.

    Higher Fast-Food Wages: Higher Fast-Food Prices

    My other challenge would be that with no minimum wage in place, what kind of restaurant would offer a higher wage? Who would knowingly raise the prices on their food to cover greater salaries in a competitive marketplace?
    Minimum wage jobs are entry level work for unskilled laborers. Would it be preferable to have a minimum wage job or not have any job? Also, if you increase food prices, the workers make less in tips due to reduced business.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  7. #207
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Sorry bud but you failed to answer the questions.

    You posit that the minimum wage kills jobs but can't find anything but supposition and circumstantial evidence.

    You avoid answering what you would pay.

    You've said that banning guns would bring about a black market and that criminals would still be armed. Paranoid raving if you look at how people act. For example, what weapon do people carry to commit crime in the US? One they can conceal most often because drawing attention is not desired. Would it not then make sense that in a community with no weapons, a guy with a 22 pistol is watched like a hawk? See what happens in the UK if you bring a gun.

    Also you seem to rely on monopolies not lasting very long... Very comforting... For the survivors.

    I'm afraid you're not engaging in this discussion here. I could go on at length but why would I bother if you stonewall all the time?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #208
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You posit that the minimum wage kills jobs but can't find anything but supposition and circumstantial evidence.
    My post above lists 4 restaurants that will close in Seattle following the implementation of a $15/hour minimum wage. I'm sure there are other reasons, but to deny that raising labor costs would have an impact is a bit naive when you consider these businesses only have a 4% profit margin.

    Here's more evidence (straight from the horse's mouth):

    "In November, San Francisco voters overwhelmingly passed a measure that will increase the minimum wage within the city to $15 per hour by 2018. Although all of us at Borderlands support the concept of a living wage in principal and we believe that it’s possible that the new law will be good for San Francisco — Borderlands Books as it exists is not a financially viable business if subject to that minimum wage. Consequently we will be closing our doors no later than March 31st." Alan Beatts, owner of Borderlands bookstore

    Liberals Surprised Beloved Bookstore Closes Due to Minimum Wage Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You avoid answering what you would pay.
    No I didn't. Way, way back, I said that workers get paid what their skillsets demand. If I were running a fast food place, I'd have to factor in property taxes, corporate income taxes, and other taxes. If I were opening a fast food joint in Los Angeles, I'd like to play around $6.50/hour and free french fries. I'd like to pay less, but if I did, I wouldn't get many takers.

    Paranoid raving if you look at how people act.
    This is exactly what happened during Prohibition when the government banned alcoholic beverages. Today, moonshine is still illegal in some parts of the country and there is still a black market for it.

    Would it not then make sense that in a community with no weapons, a guy with a 22 pistol is watched like a hawk?
    There are no communities with no weapons. The statistics on gun violence are overwhelming. Places with the most restrictive gun laws like Chicago are also the most violent; gun laws don't disarm criminals. Places that have conceal and carry laws see huge decreases in crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    I could go on at length but why would I bother if you stonewall all the time?
    There is no stonewalling here; you're ignoring empirical evidence in favor of emotional appeals to "social justice".
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  9. #209
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    There are hundreds of posts in this thread and Tellenbach still has not addressed "why" free market capitalism works. He has presented evidence that could be used to argue that it does work, but that is not the same as explaining why it works. I was hoping to at least find some hypothetical polls in this thread. I am disappointed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."
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  10. #210
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    My post above lists 4 restaurants that will close in Seattle following the implementation of a $15/hour minimum wage. I'm sure there are other reasons, but to deny that raising labor costs would have an impact is a bit naive when you consider these businesses only have a 4% profit margin.
    How many restaurants will remain open? What's the percentage lost? What do the others do differently?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Here's more evidence (straight from the horse's mouth):

    "In November, San Francisco voters overwhelmingly passed a measure that will increase the minimum wage within the city to $15 per hour by 2018. Although all of us at Borderlands support the concept of a living wage in principal and we believe that it’s possible that the new law will be good for San Francisco — Borderlands Books as it exists is not a financially viable business if subject to that minimum wage. Consequently we will be closing our doors no later than March 31st." Alan Beatts, owner of Borderlands bookstore

    Liberals Surprised Beloved Bookstore Closes Due to Minimum Wage Hikes
    Yup. Absolutely no agenda in that at all. The url is laughable.

    Book shops in this day and age are less profitable due to the advent of ebooks and the internet. Nothing surprising here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    No I didn't. Way, way back, I said that workers get paid what their skillsets demand. If I were running a fast food place, I'd have to factor in property taxes, corporate income taxes, and other taxes. If I were opening a fast food joint in Los Angeles, I'd like to play around $6.50/hour and free french fries. I'd like to pay less, but if I did, I wouldn't get many takers.
    Free fries? That's your incentive?

    How many hours would you need to work to afford to live in a small flat in the area of this shop?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This is exactly what happened during Prohibition when the government banned alcoholic beverages. Today, moonshine is still illegal in some parts of the country and there is still a black market for it.
    So do drinks companies hunt down these people as a threat to their business? I'd hazard a guess at no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There are no communities with no weapons. The statistics on gun violence are overwhelming. Places with the most restrictive gun laws like Chicago are also the most violent; gun laws don't disarm criminals. Places that have conceal and carry laws see huge decreases in crime.
    That debate has raged for ages. Neither side can attribute anything real to their arguments. We could go into this but again it'd need to be a separate thread.

    Suffice to say I disagree fundamentally with your view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There is no stonewalling here; you're ignoring empirical evidence in favor of emotional appeals to "social justice".
    I've addressed your concept of empiricism before but it seems that Lateralus has done a better job than I.

    You posit that statistic A proves proposition B because you can't see how it could not. From this you then state that this proves that theory C works and should be applied universally. This is simplistic thinking and nothing to do with whether C works or not. You're making an argument that C is the worth considering, granted, but no more than that. Hence why I think you'd be better extolling the virtues of considering how it could work in a totally free market and then rationalising against the current market.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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