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  1. #161
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Excellent. So you agree then that businesses shouldn't self regulate because their success is no measure of their worth and therefore they should not be attributed with special status.

    A grand argument against the free market ideals. Thank you.
    Oh ... that's another difference we have, that I hadn't addressed, but I spotted it earlier in the thread.

    Free market != markets with no government, no rule of law, etc.

    A very common argument is "there is no such thing as a free market", that we're only arguing about "whether" to "regulate" the market, only "how much."

    This is a straw man argument on several levels. A free market philosophy assumes that there is a government, that there are laws, and that there is rule of law. So, for example, it is one thing to have "preemptive" regulations, that prescribe exactly how things should be done in order to even begin to operate in the market, and quite another to have laws against fraud and theft or perhaps hiring yourself out as a freelance assassin. Free market advocates are in favor of laws that make fraud and theft illegal. In fact, they're in favor of all laws that serve to protect private property.

    What free market advocates argue against are the former, the preemptive regulations that, however reasonable in appearance, often get in the way of starting a business or developing new product lines. We can cede the fact that there is no way to eliminate all such regulations: it's a natural tendency of people and governments to write laws like that. What we don't cede is the notion that not all such regulations actually serve the good that they purport to serve, and often do more harm. That harm is mostly invisible, in terms of opportunity costs, such as lost jobs, lower economic growth and so on.

    It isn't a matter of "how much" regulation, therefore, so much as "what kind."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  2. #162
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It isn't a matter of "how much" regulation, therefore, so much as "what kind."
    See prior comment.

    Businesses aren't qualified to out the regulations in place to look after anything but themselves. That's why governments get involved.

    Requiring child minders to be registered is an excellent example.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #163
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    See prior comment.

    Businesses aren't qualified to out the regulations in place to look after anything but themselves. That's why governments get involved.

    Requiring child minders to be registered is an excellent example.
    Where did I say that governments didn't get involved? I actually specified how. I did not suggest that businesses "self-regulate".

    If all you want to do is restate your straw man, I'm sure you could write a bot to do that for you.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  4. #164
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ah, so you admit that the rest of my thesis is true? That the ONLY difference between us is the belief that because value is subjective, "con artists" can fool people and make them buy worthless stuff?

    And, if so, then who is to say someone is deluded? Am I deluded if I prefer to buy my car brand new instead of 2 yrs old at half the price of new, or is that my conscious choice?

    ..........

    Value is subjective. It -must- be subjective. It isn't like you can stick a value-o-meter in a product and measure its "real value". What is the real value of the hypothetical action figures? $0? $10? $10,000? How do you make an objective judgment without subjective context getting in the way?

    It's not "this environment". It's a fact of economics since before history began (evidence of global trade exists from more than 8000 years ago).
    That seems like a difficult position from which to make the case that anything is good or bad.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #165
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Where did I say that governments didn't get involved? I actually specified how. I did not suggest that businesses "self-regulate".

    If all you want to do is restate your straw man, I'm sure you could write a bot to do that for you.
    Perhaps I should quote the part where you inferred that preventative regulation was flawed? Hence the example.

    I'll put some of the effort in but I'm not spoon feeding. I've got other interests to take care of.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #166
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That seems like a difficult position from which to make the case that anything is good or bad.
    Which is why it should be left well enough alone unless there is something that is clearly bad going on, at which point the law can handle it.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #167
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Perhaps I should quote the part where you inferred that preventative regulation was flawed? Hence the example.

    I'll put some of the effort in but I'm not spoon feeding. I've got other interests to take care of.
    As long as your effort includes context, I'm good with that.

    So, please specify how registering child minders prevents bad and evil people from minding your child. Is there a blank on the registration form where they attest that they're bad and evil?

    Oh, and how in the world did BABYSITTING ever work before the government got involved in child care? It must have been so very difficult without the government to tell you whether it was OK for Annie next door to baby sit your kid.

    IOW, trust is social capital, not a government specialty.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #168
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Which is why it should be left well enough alone unless there is something that is clearly bad going on, at which point the law can handle it.
    The law? So that means the law has a special, different relationship to the fact that value is subjective. How?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #169
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The law? So that means the law has a special, different relationship to the fact that value is subjective. How?
    It's a property of timing, not the law, per se. Determining that something is bad is much easier after the fact than it is before the fact. We don't live in the universe of Minority Report, where we can tell who is going to do something bad ahead of time and prevent them from doing so.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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  10. #170
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's a property of timing, not the law, per se. Determining that something is bad is much easier after the fact than it is before the fact. We don't live in the universe of Minority Report, where we can tell who is going to do something bad ahead of time and prevent them from doing so.
    We don't live in Minority Report, which means we can't go and apprehend a future criminal before they do it, sure. But that's very specific. We have lived, essentially all of humanity's existence, in a world where we practice security. There are ways to preempt unspecified problems. So, this distinction is going to color what we do or don't accept with any idea like preventative economic policies.

    That being said, I still want to keep digging into this subjective value, thing. You talk about something "clearly bad", so what is that? How do we decided that something is clearly bad, and it's not subjective anymore?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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