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  1. #141
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're not the only one, perhaps you can all form a support group, in time maybe the inferiority complexes wont prove to be as much of a problem as they apparently are now.
    Maybe you are right, maybe the common denominator here is the inferiority complex we have towards you.

    Tehe
    .

  2. #142
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    The Swedish economy

    ANNUAL growth as high as 6.4% in the first quarter. Unemployment falling fast. The budget in surplus this year. Public debt heading to below 40% of GDP. How did the Swedes do it?
    The results have been spectacular. After long being a case study in jobless growth (except in the bloated public sector), Sweden has become a big creator of private-sector jobs. The government has narrowed the “tax wedge” that deters employment and whittled away at sickness benefits: Sweden no longer stands out for welfare excesses. The retirement age has risen to 67. Inheritance and wealth taxes have gone.
    Tight fiscal policy has pushed the public sector's share of GDP down to only just over 50% (see chart): Mr Borg has ambitions to get it below Britain's. Without dumping the generous Swedish social model, the government has tweaked it in the direction of lower taxes and smaller welfare benefits.
    Sweden still has a ways to go, but it's heading in the right direction. Lowering taxes, cutting government spending (by 32% of GDP) and welfare leads to economic growth and more job opportunities.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  3. #143
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Lately, I've been trying to 'move' people, and the more I try to seek for ways to move them, the more I realize how they all revolve around greed and desire. It reminded me of when I was a kid when I always want new videogames and my life revolved around videogames. I thought you eventually grow out of those desires and that way of thinking, and transition to something else(personal growth, knowedge, ideals, non-material values). In order to move people or even understand what's going on between people and their interactions, I had to revert back to that state of mind. Maybe it's because I lived a privileged life or maybe it's because I just don't care about what most people care about. I remember, as a kid, I used to hear that "Money makes the world go round" idea. I didn't understand it, but it's really accurate. It's the prime mover. It's ingrained and even valued in society---so ingrained that it's already attached to idea of being "human." Desire is supposedly central to being human. Now, I'm a very detached person but I'm pretty sure I'm still human. If you don't "work the same way", you're going to have a hard time dealing with the social system. I'm sure not everyone is like this but if you look at the biggest social structures in this world, from your daily interactions, to local politics, to national politics, and especially global politics, and just the way they define who gets power and the way they maintain power. Greed is central. It's pretty funny but I think the way the world works is through this "giving gifts" system. They don't even need to communicate, provide resources and automatically the 'giving' party develops an influence. I personally find it really primitive, and I guess it is actually primitive in the sense that it's partly instinctive and survival-centric. But I don't think it's impossible to grow out of it.
    A search for truth is a search for a greedy perspective.

    Nah, that's not truth. That's just your bullshit ideas of truth. Truth is always inclusive. If it's not inclusive, then toughen it up and try harder.

  4. #144
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Part of the problem with capitalism in general is that it's entirely profit-focused. I make this analogy every time I have a discussion of capitalism and socialism.


    If I were a razorblade maker and I discovered a way to make a razor that were never to dull or need replacing, in the free market, I would putting myself out of a job by supplying people with one, perfect razor. I would have a bigger incentive to sell disposable razors because it would continue to generate the most revenue.


    You can make arguments about competition and all that nonsense, but ignoring the obvious problem of monopolies, if I were to explain this quandary to my competitors, we'd likely agree to keep prices stable and continue making shittier disposable razors. An oligopoly. There's tons of em even today just to keep revenue flowing. Look at airlines, television, internet, the music industry, cell phone service providers, etc.

    You can espouse for free market capitalism all you want. In so doing, you're also asking for planned obsolescence, grossly wasted resources, and service just shitty enough to keep you dissatisfied, but placated.
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    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand
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  5. #145
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    service just shitty enough to keep you dissatisfied, but placated.
    This. Times ten.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
    Likes Hard liked this post

  6. #146
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The concept that money has no limit is ludicrous. Of course there is a finite source or the individual unit is devalued. Based on that, where else do you think it comes from?
    Let me introduce you to the Federal Reserve, our source of fiat currency for the past 40 years.

    In a normally growing economy with a finite supply of money, you get a gradual deflation, where the rate of deflation is roughly proportional to the rate of growth. This held true for the US on the gold standard in the 19th century. In this case, if one person has more money, then another person has less money. BUT the amount of stuff that the money can buy increases (hence the deflation). If one person makes more stuff and trades it for other stuff, the total amount of stuff increases, and the stuff that the person made isn't taken from anyone. (This is in very cartoonish terms, omitting tons of complexities. The principle is that being productive doesn't take anything away from other people, but instead adds to everyone's wealth.)

    In a normally growing economy with a fiat currency, the central bank selectively "extends credit" to increase the money supply. The current ideal of the Federal Reserve is a 2% inflation target. Money is injected into the economy at a rate faster than that which would maintain inflation at zero. There is a taking of real money/wealth, here. If you have $10,000 in the bank, a 2% inflation target makes that money worth $9,800 next year, and you have people scrambling for investments with a return greater than that 2%. A typical savings account will pay 0.10% interest, these days (another side effect of Fed policy). The same truth applies here as above: if someone makes stuff and sells it, there is more overall stuff for everyone, and a year later there's 2% (plus the rough value of the new stuff) more money chasing that stuff around due to inflation targeting.

    With the Fed in place, you have the ultimate instrument of stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. When new credit is extended, who gets the main benefit? The banks (to whom the Fed extends credit), Wall St investors (the only thing that provides ROI, as interest rates are so low), and the government (which gets to spend money it doesn't borrow or tax). Who gets hurt most? The poor, who are just as poor as they were last year, except now they're 2% poorer.

    If one side profits more than the other then the other side is said to be losing. Based on the ideology presented, no game would ever finish because irrespective of the scores, both sides would win.
    In an idealized free market, all trades are win-win. You grow bananas, I make toilet paper. I sell my toilet paper to the market, and I buy bananas, among other things. You didn't lose bananas, I didn't lose toilet paper. We both ended up with more than what we had before, and society as a whole ends up with more than it had before.

    The real world is more complicated, of course. People take risks, make bad investments, build a business that doesn't make money, and they lose. But they don't lose because someone took their stuff, they lose because they spent money on an idea that didn't pan out. For example, I could start a business with the idea of manufacturing and selling Uumlau action figures, because of course Uumlau is so cool and everyone wants an action figure of him. All the money that I lost pursuing such an idiotic endeavor did NOT get taken by my competitors: it was just a stupid idea that wouldn't make money. And I would have a bunch of action figures left over that no one ever took from me.

    A "profit" is nothing more than the difference between what something is worth TO YOU, vs what something is worth TO SOMEONE ELSE. If I'm not making a profit with my Uumlau action figure business, it's because I've seriously overestimated the "to someone else" part of that equation of profit. Of course, once you get into all of the accounting and taxes and all the rest, it gains the patina of its more sinister characterization, that it's "extra money" above and beyond what something is "really worth". For the record, the notion of something having a "true value" that is independent of its price causes more economic misunderstandings than any other economic fallacy.

    Every individual who makes money is earning a profit in this way. Even the minimum wage worker is making a profit, as his time is worth more to his employer doing work, than it is to him sitting at home doing nothing. Profit is what people are paid for being productive. This extends to more abstract forms of productivity, such as shipping goods from one place to another, or a middleman buying from a variety of manufacturers and reselling those products in a way convenient to the consumer.

    There is no zero-sum effect with respect to the profit (even with constant money supply, as I explain above). The only zero-sum part of the game is the government, which pretends to create value by moving money from one place to another without actually producing anything. Oooh, that's the ticket! I just need the government to subsidize my Uumlau action figure enterprise! *cha-ching*
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  7. #147
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    If I were a razorblade maker and I discovered a way to make a razor that were never to dull or need replacing, in the free market, I would putting myself out of a job by supplying people with one, perfect razor. I would have a bigger incentive to sell disposable razors because it would continue to generate the most revenue.
    No need for hypotheticals. Aren't vaccines which have eliminated some diseases like smallpox and polio the sort of product you are describing? What's the incentive for drug companies to make vaccines? Evidently, there is enough profit to justify making these vaccines.

    In so doing, you're also asking for planned obsolescence, grossly wasted resources, and service just shitty enough to keep you dissatisfied, but placated.
    And yet, I see vast improvements in technology everyday, in the cars we drive, in television sets, consumer electronics, and in medicine.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #148
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In an idealized free market, all trades are win-win. You grow bananas, I make toilet paper. I sell my toilet paper to the market, and I buy bananas, among other things. You didn't lose bananas, I didn't lose toilet paper. We both ended up with more than what we had before, and society as a whole ends up with more than it had before.
    This is the basic disagreement here.

    You're stating that people pay what something is worth and receive likewise. This is untrue. You sell at what you can get and you buy at what you can get. That is never the actual value.

    Take cars for example. I buy a new car and drive it off the forecourt down the road and sell it. Some cars will have dropped 40 percent in value in ten miles. That's now based on value but the perception of value. Add to that mix marketing and strategy and you have the market, basically. Now who has the most influence on perception? The big boys,the ones with the cash. Ergo they can set the market in their favour.

    Btw, when did the government getting money become separate from the people? Do we Brits need to let you guys back in so you can see how it's done right?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #149
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    No need for hypotheticals. Aren't vaccines which have eliminated some diseases like smallpox and polio the sort of product you are describing? What's the incentive for drug companies to make vaccines? Evidently, there is enough profit to justify making these vaccines.
    I believe the science isn't as straight forward as you're portraying. Plus diseases mutate, go dormant and all kinds of funky stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    And yet, I see vast improvements in technology everyday, in the cars we drive, in television sets, consumer electronics, and in medicine.
    And people buy them convinced that they've improved their lives. A wonderful example of how a business can make money by spinning your head. Why give them any more power than absolutely necessary?

    Still, I believe the answer isn't in any extreme but in an acceptance that no dogmatic view will work, only compromise and negotiation.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  10. #150
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Police lock up elderly in care crisis: Watchdog report reveals OAP's ordeal

    Vulnerable pensioners are being locked in police cells when care home staff cannot cope with them.

    A shocking official report reveals that a 90-year-old dementia sufferer was put in custody after he rowed with his carers and they dialled 999.

    In another desperate case, a 75-year-old with multiple health problems was detained even against the advice of his doctor.

    The examples were uncovered by watchdogs investigating police treatment of the elderly, the mentally ill and children.
    They found that frontline officers frequently took emergency calls from staff at hospitals and care homes.

    And police often ended up dealing with the troubled pensioners because social service and NHS staff were not available.
    This is what Obamacare looks like in the near future as heathcare costs skyrocket and bureaucrats scramble to save money on the backs of our elderly.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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