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  1. #111
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    I'm of the thinking that proof requires proof not simple "thus was done and thus happened". It's too easy to manipulate, misunderstand or just plain miss.
    And yet, you support socialist policies without any "proof", don't you? And am I incorrect in thinking that you also support climate change/global warming science without proof?

    I'm not sure what kind of proof you're seeking. All of the empirical evidence supports the idea that freer economies do much better than restricted or centrally planned ones. In the next couple of pages, I think I'll start posting actual examples of nations and states that have adopted freer economic principles.

    Also, that Kardashians' show never gets a 30 share like EastEnders; nice try though.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #112
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    To understand why 61% of Brits approve of the inept NHS, you have to first understand something about the British people. These folks also love EastEnders, one of the most horrible TV shows ever broadcast.
    Ad hominem.

    Tell that to the 42,000 people killed by NHS ineptitude each year.
    The Texas sharpshooter

    Of course you can measure the impact of socialist/centrally planned policies vs free market policies. Just look the changes in income, economic growth, employment before and after the changes are implemented.
    False cause

    punish a behavior and you'll get less of it. Tax a person; he leaves, and you get less tax revenue. What's wrong with Gordon Brown and his liberal cohorts?
    Slippery slope

    It's not my theory. Economist Arthur Laffer wrote a book about it called "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of States".
    Appeal to authority

    Pretty much every statistic mentioned
    Confirmation bias


    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
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    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand
    Likes Xander, Hard, Falcarius liked this post

  3. #113
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    And yet, you support socialist policies without any "proof", don't you? And am I incorrect in thinking that you also support climate change/global warming science without proof?
    You're speaking to a guy who's had a long standing argument about whether time actually exists or not. I'd question my own name if I didn't know it was arbitrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm not sure what kind of proof you're seeking. All of the empirical evidence supports the idea that freer economies do much better than restricted or centrally planned ones. In the next couple of pages, I think I'll start posting actual examples of nations and states that have adopted freer economic principles.
    You haven't put up any empirical evidence yet. I have to conclude you don't understand the concept.

    Empirical doesn't just mean measurable if you're talking at this level. It has to be attributable and the things you are talking about are so far down the chain of events as to be far from Empirical. That's what I've been trying to elicit from you, some kind of indication that your view is based on something tangible and you're not just stark raving. My repeated disappointment may just be the last thing I experience with this line of thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Also, that Kardashians' show never gets a 30 share like EastEnders; nice try though.
    I chose one example of the many, many on offer. From what I observed there are entire channels of similarly dire dross available on tap. The occasional gem is a real find.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  4. #114
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Capitalism is ideal (if not necessary) for economic and individual growth. I haven't studied economics to put all my bets on it but 99% would go into that statement. However, free market sounds dangerous and allowing it would be counter productive if the government wishes to take-care (food, shelter, jobs) the majority of its people.

    Therefore I would say that:

    Capitalism rocks.
    Free market sucks.
    .

  5. #115
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Capitalism is ideal (if not necessary) for economic and individual growth. I haven't studied economics to put all my bets on it but 99% would go into that statement. However, free market sounds dangerous and allowing it would be counter productive if the government wishes to take-care (food, shelter, jobs) the majority of its people.

    Therefore I would say that:

    Capitalism rocks.
    Free market sucks.
    I'm a firm believer that no ism is right but all of then have good ideas. To me it's dangerous to support an ism because an ism is more difficult to change and to moderate to suit the need than an idea or a framework. I'd say it's high time we binned the isms and went for just plain old good ideas.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #116
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You're speaking to a guy who's had a long standing argument about whether time actually exists or not. I'd question my own name if I didn't know it was arbitrary.
    You haven't answered the question. Didn't I read that you claim to be a socialist?

    You haven't put up any empirical evidence yet. I have to conclude you don't understand the concept.
    So let's see. I posted at least three examples where rich people have left their nation after a high tax was enacted and attributed their action to the tax policy. I posted a link to an article that says 20% of the rich have left France (one year after a high tax was enacted) but this isn't empirical evidence by your standards. I don't think you'll accept any evidence. To me, the evidence is overwhelming.

    Here are 9 more example of high taxes driving people out and 9 more examples of low tax states attracting people:

    The nine states with no personal income tax gained $113.17 billion in adjusted gross income between 2000 and 2010; the nine states with the highest personal income tax rates lost $90.05 billion over the same period.
    Nine states with the highest personal income tax rates lost $90.05 billion in adjusted gross income between 2000 and 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    From what I observed there are entire channels of similarly dire dross available on tap.
    You're not going to find a 30 share for any american TV show these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    Ad hominem.
    None of the examples you cited as logical fallacies are fallacies at all. I'll explain 1 or 2 of your mistakes.

    An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person, not the argument. I was explaining why so many Brits love such a horrible show; it's a limited frame of reference and also why Gordon Ramsay is wrong when he accuses restaurant owners of being in denial. These owners aren't in denial; they just didn't know what good food tastes like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    The Texas sharpshooter
    non-sequitur

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    False cause
    Only if you dismiss supply side economic theory and the idea that policies have consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    Appeal to authority
    Wasn't making an appeal; I was making a correction. Someone had posted that these were "my numbers"; I merely pointed out where I got them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    Confirmation bias
    My favorite allegation. It's confirmation bias if you can show me contrary lines of evidence that I've ignored. Go ahead.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #117
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    You haven't answered the question. Didn't I read that you claim to be a socialist?
    You may have labelled things I said with many isms, however, I do not support any political ism as a whole. I only support ideas I think will work. I couldn't care less who came up with them.

    As a side note, I am not here to answer your questions the same as you are not here to answer mine. This is why I have done you the courtesy of not chasing you on answers to questions you have either skipped or ignored. It is not polite to hound.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    So let's see. I posted at least three examples where rich people have left their nation after a high tax was enacted and attributed their action to the tax policy. I posted a link to an article that says 20% of the rich have left France (one year after a high tax was enacted) but this isn't empirical evidence by your standards. I don't think you'll accept any evidence. To me, the evidence is overwhelming.

    Here are 9 more example of high taxes driving people out and 9 more examples of low tax states attracting people:
    If you are going with the classical version of empiricism then yes your examples do support your beliefs. I was picking up that you meant to infer some kind of scientific value to your concepts like it was proof. For that you miss the mark by quite a distance because you cannot say that that in every case of x, y happens. You can say it has happened but not that it will.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #118
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    My favorite allegation. It's confirmation bias if you can show me contrary lines of evidence that I've ignored. Go ahead.
    I expected this one. Burden of proof.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  9. #119
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    I only support ideas I think will work. I couldn't care less who came up with them.
    Me too and yet you've dismissed ideas that have abundant evidence in their favor for ideas (such as an estate tax and a minimum wage) that have very little evidence to support them.

    This is why I have done you the courtesy of not chasing you on answers to questions you have either skipped or ignored. It is not polite to hound.
    Hound away. If I've ignored a question, it's probably because I've forgotten it already and I'm not going to go dig for those questions. Also, I'm enjoying this discussion. I hope there are no hard feelings. I've wondered for a while now why some nations and policy makers insist on repeating the same mistakes over and over again. This discussion has provided me some clues.

    The estate tax (death tax) doesn't work because the rich will just move their assets out of the country to Swiss bank accounts or they'll hire really smart tax consultants and lawyers to shield them from it. The evidence shows that the money collected from the estate tax is roughly equal to the money spent hiding it. Such a waste of time and resources.

    It's also largely a myth that the majority of the rich inherited their wealth. In the US, only 18% of millionaires inherited their fortunes. The rest earned that money themselves. In the end, their is no evidence that the estate tax reduces the gap between the rich and poor. You can confiscate the entire fortunes of the top 1% right now and it wouldn't make a dent in the poverty rate.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #120
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Much has been made of the growing income gap between the rich and the poor by the American left. It is true that the gap is widening, but this actually a good thing. I'll explain by using some numbers from Laffer's "Return to Prosperity".

    1. In 1983, the lowest quintile of income earners made $12,500 while the top quintile made $99,800.

    2. In 2005, the lowest quintile made $15,300 while the top quintile made a whopping $172,200.

    The bottom quintile saw a 9.29% increase in income while the top quintile enjoyed a 46.8% increase in income.

    Think about this: is it really so bad that the income gap widened when everyone is enjoying greater prosperity? Let me ask it another way.

    Do you want to be equal and poor (cavemen) or do you want to be unequal but prosperous (modern, industrialized societies)? Those income figures are inflation adjusted.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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