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  1. #91
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Not that I don't believe your stats . . .
    These aren't my numbers. They're from Laffer's book and the numbers come from a variety of sources such as The Franchise Tax Board, National Tax Journal, Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, National Center for Education Statistics, etc.

    Maybe it'd help if you heard from a fellow countryman:

    "The whole business thing is predicated a lot on the tax laws. It's why we rehearse in Canada and not in the USA. A lot of our astute moves have been basically keeping up with tax laws, where to go, where not to put it. Whether to sit on it or not. We left England because we'd be paying 98 cents on the dollar. We left, and they lost out. No taxes at all." --- Keith Richards, Rolling Stones

    I believe Gerard Depardieu left France for the same reason --- high taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    All very nice statistics, however, you haven't linked any of them to a free market except in the most circumstantial of ways. Perhaps you have some stats that would illuminate the connection?
    The best comparison is between states in the same region with similar population sizes. Let's look at New Hampshire vs Vermont, two neighboring states in the Northeast USA.

    New Hampshire has no personal income tax or a general sales tax. Vermont's top income tax rate is 8.95% and it has a 6% general sales tax.

    Is there a difference between these two neighboring states?

    1. In 2012, Vermont's air traffic totaled 619,000 passengers; New Hampshire got 1.2 million passengers.

    2. New Hampshire's population grew by 6.5% between 2000 and 2010. Vermont's grew by only 2.8%.

    3. New Hampshire's cumulative adjusted gross income (AGI) change due to migration from other states was $3.21 billion from 1992 through 2009.
    Vermont's cumulative AGI was $0.77 billion.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #92
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Hollande Government Pledges To Rescind High Tax on Top Earners After 20 Percent Increase in Such Families Leaving France

    President Francois Hollande ran on a pledge to soak the rich in tax increases, a popular political platform but a disastrous economic plan. The result has been predictable. The French economy is in terrible condition and thousands of French families are leaving the country for England, the United States, and other countries. Now, Hollande’s government has announced that it will rescind the tax increase. Hollande and his socialist allies refused to accept the obvious impact of such a tax and now, a few years later, it will remove the tax after losing a huge amount of high earner tax dollars.
    The tax applied to all families with assets of more than €800,000 (£630,000). I have French friends who have told me about the devastating impact of the Hollande tax plans. One friend’s family decided to sell off most of their fishing boats because they could not handle the tax burden and make any profit. They let go most of their workers who joined the unemployment lines — adding another cost to such short-sighted policies. Another friend wanted to take his family back to France but decided that he could not because he could not start a business in the country. The business had customers and a market niche but the taxes would not allow him to make any serious profit.
    Folks, this is just common sense. Raise taxes on people and people will leave.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  3. #93
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Gérard Depardieu's tax move to Belgium divides France

    Even after weeks of speculation, the announcement a fortnight ago that Depardieu, 63, was moving to Belgium to take refuge from Socialist president François Hollande's planned "temporary supertax" on earnings of more than €1m (£815,000) came as a shock to fans.
    I liked The Return of Martin Guerre, but that's about it. Now that Depardieu's gone, the only other French actor we know of is Audrey Tautou or Amelie.

    However, the debate has moved beyond what some would call an act of betrayal by the star of French films such as Cyrano de Bergerac and Danton. Film director Claude Lelouch said Depardieu was lucky to pay high taxes because it showed he was a success. "It means things are going well," he told BFMTV.
    French politicians should start reading some Milton Friedman and Arthur Laffer to clear their minds of this socialist nonsense. Depardieu is smart to have left; he worked hard for his fortune; why should he give that up so that others who haven't worked as hard get the benefit of his labor. Same boat my ass. These socialists simply don't understand economics.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #94
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Tellenbach, you haven't linked anything yet. You're quiting sources giving specific and isolated incidents believing that these prove the stats. They don't. You could find the whole thing is coincidence, there's nothing there except probability.

    To start using stars as guidance is daft. Keith Richards and Gérard Depardieu are not representative of anyone but themselves. That's their whole selling point, they are unique.

    Also, don't even get me started on the whole different States have different tax rates. The US economy model was set up by a petulant and deranged child. No sane person would allow free movement, different taxes and then call it United. It's just nuts.

    All you have proven thus far from your research is that if rich people think they can get a better deal elsewhere then they are prepared to move. Fine. This is exactly why you don't give them power over the populace and restrict them. Now you may believe that a global economy will help restrain the worst excesses and companies will be held to account despite being able to up sticks very easily. I would suggest that you should wait until the US stops having protectionist policies on its businesses before you evaluate that one. It may just be that if the US took on the world stage on fair terms that it wouldn't do as well. In fact there's the theory that the only reason it's a big deal at all is because it wasn't touched by WW2 but that's beside the point.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #95
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    You could find the whole thing is coincidence, there's nothing there except probability.
    It could be a coincidence if you can find exceptions and there may be exceptions to the migration patterns, but over 90% of the migration is from high tax areas to low tax areas. Also, in the 11 cases of the states that have implemented a personal income tax post 1960, ALL of them have suffered as a result and after the implementation of the income tax.

    People left France in droves AFTER Hollande's socialist policies, not before and they admitted that it was the high taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    All you have proven thus far from your research is that if rich people think they can get a better deal elsewhere then they are prepared to move. Fine.
    It's not just rich people. It's people who are able to move. Also, rich people are very frequently business owners. If they leave, the business leaves and you have less job opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    In fact there's the theory that the only reason it's a big deal at all is because it wasn't touched by WW2 but that's beside the point.
    Free market economies tend to do much better than centrally planned economies all over the world (look at North Korea vs South Korea). Nations that have cut the corporate tax rate (like Canada and Germany) have seen lots of growth. Also, most of the growth in the USA occured post 1981, when Reaganomics was implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    This is exactly why you don't give them power over the populace and restrict them.
    They are plenty restricted. The regulatory burden on businesses is $1.7 trillion/year. That's how much it costs businesses to comply with regulations. Imagine if that $1.7 trillion went towards salaries and creating jobs. Everyone would be better off.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #96
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    As UK millionaires flee country over tax hikes, British treasury loses billions

    Raising the country’s top income tax rate to 50 percent has cost the UK 7 billion pounds — about $11.2 billion — since 2010, according to London’s Daily Telegraph newspaper, as wealthy taxpayers have intentionally worked less, deferred income to future years, moved their earnings overseas or left the country entirely.
    I'm not sure why socialists can't learn this simple lesson. It's the first law of economics; punish a behavior and you'll get less of it. Tax a person; he leaves, and you get less tax revenue. What's wrong with Gordon Brown and his liberal cohorts?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #97
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It could be a coincidence if you can find exceptions and there may be exceptions to the migration patterns, but over 90% of the migration is from high tax areas to low tax areas. Also, in the 11 cases of the states that have implemented a personal income tax post 1960, ALL of them have suffered as a result and after the implementation of the income tax.

    People left France in droves AFTER Hollande's socialist policies, not before and they admitted that it was the high taxes.
    I can only say this so much before even I become bored by it, A implies B does not imply that B implies A.

    Lack of evidence that God doesn't exist does not lend much credence to the idea that he does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It's not just rich people. It's people who are able to move. Also, rich people are very frequently business owners. If they leave, the business leaves and you have less job opportunities.
    Businesses stay where they are best situated. Few businesses are devoid of a supply chain to or from their sites.

    If you have a million customers in town you don't go moving the site unless you can serve those million customers with a similar efficiency from elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Free market economies tend to do much better than centrally planned economies all over the world (look at North Korea vs South Korea). Nations that have cut the corporate tax rate (like Canada and Germany) have seen lots of growth. Also, most of the growth in the USA occured post 1981, when Reaganomics was implemented.



    They are plenty restricted. The regulatory burden on businesses is $1.7 trillion/year. That's how much it costs businesses to comply with regulations. Imagine if that $1.7 trillion went towards salaries and creating jobs. Everyone would be better off.
    So a restricted free market.

    Let's cut the BS. You aren't talking about a free market and have none to exemplify. What you're talking about is a looser set of restraints on business. The problem with that is its all about balance an nothing to do with bipartisan thinking. This is why politicians rarely overturn the former governments setups (at least in the UK) no matter how much they protest at the time.

    Personally I'd see more restriction on the politicians who do operate in a free market and show exactly the kind of back stabbing, self serving response you could expect. As long as the customer doesn't know he's being shafted until he's bought into it, then all's fair.

    So I guess the question should be, what areas of restriction are nagging at your nerves?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  8. #98
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    If you have a million customers in town you don't go moving the site unless you can serve those million customers with a similar efficiency from elsewhere.
    You're neglecting the businesses that are thinking of expanding. They are much more likely to start a business in states that have lower taxes and fewer regulations and that means more job opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    So a restricted free market.
    I've always said there is no perfection, but nations that are economically freer do better.

    So I guess the question should be, what areas of restriction are nagging at your nerves?
    1. Lower personal income taxes; lower capital gains taxes, property taxes, corporate taxes.

    2. Eliminate the death tax.

    3. Flatten the tax and make it less progressive.

    4. Eliminate most regulations and privatize most government bureaucratic functions.

    5. Get rid of the minimum wage.

    6. Enact Right to Work legislation everywhere; "Right to work" just means that people can't be forced to join a union.

    7. Drastically reduce the power of the Federal Reserve so they can't print money at will.

    8. Enact "loser pays" tort reform.

    9. Abolish Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid; slowly phase out Social Security.

    10. Patient choice in medical care; if a patient wants to try an experimental drug, it's their choice and not the government's.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #99
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    6. Enact Right to Work legislation everywhere; "Right to work" just means that people can't be forced to join a union.

    10. Patient choice in medical care; if a patient wants to try an experimental drug, it's their choice and not the government's.
    Taking pause to say that I mostly agree with these.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    2. Eliminate the death tax.

    8. Enact "loser pays" tort reform.
    And I partially agree with these (I have exceptions I would want to apply).


    (I do not care to discuss further; just making my thoughts known since I saw some common ground).
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  10. #100
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    1. Lower personal income taxes; lower capital gains taxes, property taxes, corporate taxes.
    Problem, less tax means less military. The US military I believe was quoted to be the number one employer world wide.

    You just cost a load of jobs.

    Plus of course less tax means that anyone who can't find work, say due to social stigma or incapacity is probably boned. Best shoot the next one born who looks like they can't "contribute" to this society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    2. Eliminate the death tax.
    So with less tax and no death tax (I'm assuming it's like inheritance tax here) the money stays with the same people. Stagnant wealth does not do well for the people. There's plenty of examples both old and current of too much money in one place making for poor decisions for everyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    3. Flatten the tax and make it less progressive.
    I do think the jump points are a little vicious. If you only marginally cross over you don't tend to see much in return. Mind you its often only a short stopping point for many so what's the end cost?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    4. Eliminate most regulations and privatize most government bureaucratic functions.
    Working for a local authority I can tell you they're trying and have tried this here. The end result is often you have to buy it back Anyhow because the private sector isn't motivated to supply the services people want, only the ones that will make them money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    5. Get rid of the minimum wage.
    What for? The only reason to drop this is to pay people less than this. As it's often based on what is needed to live you're proposing that some people just work out of the kindness of their hearts. Sounds like a tool for oppression with no end in sight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    6. Enact Right to Work legislation everywhere; "Right to work" just means that people can't be forced to join a union.
    Sensible as long as the situation isn't that the employer is such a tool that they have to run a closed shop to keep them in check. Perhaps an oversight committee to makes sure... Oh right, you don't want them. Stuff it, let's have proper communistic ideals and let the boss keep all the money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    7. Drastically reduce the power of the Federal Reserve so they can't print money at will.
    So the government can't control inflation either. Interesting. How do you keep the banks in check considering they kinda screwed up majorly by not being kept in check not so long back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    8. Enact "loser pays" tort reform.
    Wouldn't this mean that as a business I'd make sure that my legal costs were shown to be so high that no one would claim incase they lost?
    Seems like another tool used to keep businesses beyond the reach of the common man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    9. Abolish Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid; slowly phase out Social Security.
    And ban bonus payouts because they're bit earned also?
    Ban medical schemes through work?
    Oh just ban ones not run by an entity that's all about the bottom line. That won't ever go wrong.

    You mean the pretty much world renowned NHS does nothing for you? I hope you don't get sick when you're abroad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    10. Patient choice in medical care; if a patient wants to try an experimental drug, it's their choice and not the government's.
    And if a patient is paid to take one and not told all the risks then it'll be easier to cover it up.
    So require people to take a drivers test to ensure they're safe but don't worry about drugs. What harm could they do?

    Now limited voluntary trials with oversight could work well. Limited risk and ensuring that no money business is done. That would be progressive. I think you're enthusiastically welcoming back snake oil otherwise.


    In summary, yes your ideas can work but only for a select few and only whilst they keep being in the system. Fall outside just once and you may as well call it quits.

    Imagine the guy who works night and day at his business. Ploughs every cent into it and then gets shoved out of the market by big business when he's late sixties. Chances are he's not going to make it big again or bounce back. By your system you say thanks and throw him from the closest tall building like the refuse he is.

    You must be amazingly sure of your own worth to support such ideas. Rich family maybe? Perhaps an accountant?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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