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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I don't think I could define it, actually. Different countries require different forms of government as the culture and people will allow and preclude various form from functioning. What I *ideally* want would never work and I recognize that, as unfortunately, the populous as a general whole doesn't pay close enough attention to politics and put active thought into issues at hand.
    I totally agree with this, actually. There's even a name for it, biopolitics.

    For example the efforts to implement a democratic system in post-colonial Africa, darling of the liberal left, has failed spectacularly, and I suspect always will due to the way those people naturally organise. I actually think Middle Eastern peoples are more capable of embracing it, as Turkey showed for a while, but the religious practices of this region are a clear impediment. The people in these countries have to want what you can offer; you just can't tell them what's best for them.

    Many people have this dogmatic belief that humanity is one, and thus consequently believe that an essentially Anglo-Saxon idea can be equally successful when applied to radically different cultures. There is not much evidence for this, but good luck persuading anybody on here.

  2. #12
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    One that doesn't mention religion of any kind, I'm sick of hearing about it.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    nordic
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    See when I think about it, its self, self-government.

    If that was got right there'd be a lot less trouble with any other variety.

    Or need of it. Practice what you preach. Be the change you want to see in the world.

  5. #15
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    Democracy

  6. #16
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    One that doesn't mention religion of any kind, I'm sick of hearing about it.
    Given, of course, something like the First Amendment.

    Scratch that; I'd like something which spells out 'This government is through-and-through secular. Period. END OF DISCUSSION."
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    For example the efforts to implement a democratic system in post-colonial Africa, darling of the liberal left, has failed spectacularly, and I suspect always will due to the way those people naturally organise. I actually think Middle Eastern peoples are more capable of embracing it, as Turkey showed for a while, but the religious practices of this region are a clear impediment. The people in these countries have to want what you can offer; you just can't tell them what's best for them.

    Many people have this dogmatic belief that humanity is one, and thus consequently believe that an essentially Anglo-Saxon idea can be equally successful when applied to radically different cultures. There is not much evidence for this, but good luck persuading anybody on here.
    No doubt there were ancient Athenians who said the same thing about other cultures, including those pale-skinned barbarians to the north. And they were right for a long, long time before some desperate pilgrims crossed a big ocean, founded the Thirteen Colonies, instituted a democracy under the Articles of Confederation that failed miserably due to limited federal power, and then finally tried again with a new Constitution. There were plenty of folks, particularly folks across the ocean, who thought it'd never work. But it did. Democracy worked so well that it spread to a bunch of European nations that had known nothing but monarchies and tribalism since time immemorial.

    But hey, I'm sure us whites are special like you say, and it's those liberals who have a thing or two to learn about history.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Many people have this dogmatic belief that humanity is one, and thus consequently believe that an essentially Anglo-Saxon idea can be equally successful when applied to radically different cultures. There is not much evidence for this, but good luck persuading anybody on here.
    I think a lot of the stigma contemporary Western culture has against non-Democratic forms of government is the wrongful inference that a government that exerts autocratic power over its own people will inevitably expand this coercion to the scale of conquering and assimilating other, "freer" nations than it, when, in reality, it's all too often democracies that do exactly the same. The irony in this is that according to the logic of Democracy, coercing other nations is no better than coercing the people of one's own nation.
    I'd feel perfectly fine in a Democracy or Republic surrounded by dictatorships around my borders. It's Empires that I find nasty.



    Le "human nature is corrupt, politics are too big for concerned people to change, and people will always be playing the same game of squabbling over resources" meme.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    No doubt there were ancient Athenians who said the same thing about other cultures, including those pale-skinned barbarians to the north. And they were right for a long, long time before some desperate pilgrims crossed a big ocean, founded the Thirteen Colonies, instituted a democracy under the Articles of Confederation that failed miserably due to limited federal power, and then finally tried again with a new Constitution. There were plenty of folks, particularly folks across the ocean, who thought it'd never work. But it did. Democracy worked so well that it spread to a bunch of European nations that had known nothing but monarchies and tribalism since time immemorial.
    Firstly to give you some historical background, modern liberalism was actually first theorised by John Locke, an Englishman, and the European Enlightenment was the nexus for democratic ideals. There is so much mythology and romanticising of the Pilgrims and early America, but they didn't invent democracy. Neither did the Athenians, really. I think if you looked at how their system operated, you would find that they didn't have much in common with us.

    Secondly, your logic is flawed. Just because one group has succeeded in adopting an ideology over time does not mean another, far more disparate group will, and the onus is on you to prove this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    But hey, I'm sure us whites are special like you say, and it's those liberals who have a thing or two to learn about history.
    Well I am glad you agree

  10. #20
    Member ~ReggieRebel~'s Avatar
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    okay im going to agree with the first guy...who said machiavelian. dunno what was going on inside the princes head when he wrote it, but for all we know that it hasnt worked in recent history (because of human nature perhaps) i find it equally hard to believe that folks cant see the beauty in such a system, if it is run exactly as the book points out. lock me up for a war criminal while you have the chance, but i believe too many people focus only on the humor, or the it will never work, or the whatever one aspect you want to ascribe to it, and miss the forest for the tree.
    the prince as a whole is a masterpieve if governship. if a chopstick is used to stab someone instead of picknup a piece of asian food, is it the fault of the chopstick inventor, or the fault of the one who did the stabbing??

    im done my speel. but if i had to pick a world to live in, even if imperfect, i would choose it. if someone isnt willing to fight for something, amd take the consequences of having said so, they shouldnt stand up for it.

    am i condoning mass murders and all the other sorts of evils? no.....but i recognize that every government has its evils, and i dont believe we are qualified to say that, or which, or wheither evils caused by one group are better than or to be prefered over another.


    there has to be some concretes, otherwise there is no meaming.


    i agree with machiavelism as a matter of principle. i dont like democracy because of matters of principle. yet i will accept that for the current moment, democracy is where things are. but careful observations will reveal that the global conciousness of those in power are moving into two camps, possibly three. machiavelism, whether as written in the book, or as acted by the terrors of the past few hundred years, will very much take center stage.
    Active, successful natures shun the dictum 'Know Thyself' and follow the commamdment 'Will Thyself' ~nietzsche

    "Willing is the intj's evolutionary consequence of Knowing present and future as the everpresent livestream of yesterminute." ~reg~

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