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  1. #81
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You do, but you do not have the right to impose your choice on others, or even expect them to agree in the absence of some very sound reasoning and evidence. Your "test of time" can just as easily be used to justify racism, or even slavery. But then if I recall awhile back you commented elsewhere that slavery isn't so bad, really.


    Exactly. Being gay is more like being black, and harmful for similar reasons.


    Here at least we have evidence to the contrary. Being gay is as much as choice as being left-handed, or blue-eyed.


    Do you have any better ideas?

    To me, it's on the level of those old salesmen peddling snake oil. Whether they honestly believe it will cure whatever ailment they claim to treat, or know it's bunk and just want the money, their claims are fradulent once publicly disproven. You don't even need to address the moral question of whether ailment X should be treated, or whether it even meets the definition of "ailment".


    There is a difference between espousing an unpopular view, and expecting everyone else to do so, especially when one cannot make a rational case for it. AGA is not the first member to encounter opposition here for doing so, and won't be the last.


    Why is it understandable? They don't take Aesop's Fables or the Santa Claus legend literally.


    Just who is going to give everyone these tools and make sure everyone has fair access to them? We tried relying on charities for "people who need help" and it was a miserable failure, at least for anyone who expects people to be able to act freely on a level playing field.


    An interesting question, especially since I believe AGA works as a midwife. Could she refuse to attend the birth of such a baby, assuming its parents had not aborted? Or would she deliver the child in the hopes that he would later on undergo the anti-gay conversion process?
    Who is AGA? All I can think of the the Aga Khan...and I kinda think that's not who you mean.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #82
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    https://news.vice.com/article/judge-...reaking-ruling


    we've known for decades it doesn't work nor should it, so its a bit sad that its taken this long for steps to be taken to make it illegal. The practices should've been shut down when dsm decided homosexuality was no longer a disorder back in the 70s it's now 35 years later. I guess better late then never
    I just skimmed teh article. The judge rules it is a fraud, not on methodological grounds, nor on success rate, but on the dictum that homosexuality is not a disorder.
    In other words, he's claiming that said therapy is a "cure for which there is no disease" as the old saying goes.

    But reading on the practices engaged in by the defendants ... such things as beating up pillows of their mother, or getting naked in a circle with their counselor, or wrestling away two oranges--representing testicles, from someone else -- I think the only problem was, they practiced in New Jersey instead of like, California, dude.

    As far as DSM deciding homosexuality is not a disorder...political. But as the late Richard Feynman told us, psychology has never been a real science. ("You speak to your [recently deceased] wife? What do you say?"
    "I tell her I love her, if that's alright with you!" (...psychologist makes note, 'Third-person auditory hallucinations *confirmed*.')
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  3. #83
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    As far as DSM deciding homosexuality is not a disorder...political. But as the late Richard Feynman told us, psychology has never been a real science. ("You speak to your [recently deceased] wife? What do you say?"
    "I tell her I love her, if that's alright with you!" (...psychologist makes note, 'Third-person auditory hallucinations *confirmed*.')
    So what do you view homosexuality as then? As disorder, or not. Or are you saying it's neither on the grounds that psychology is bunk.
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  4. #84
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    Just who is going to give everyone these tools and make sure everyone has fair access to them? We tried relying on charities for "people who need help" and it was a miserable failure, at least for anyone who expects people to be able to act freely on a level playing field.
    We begin with equal access to good schools by implementing school choice.

    I'm not sure why you think charities are a failure. The Red Cross, the Salvation Army, and Meals on Wheels still do great work.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #85
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Why is it understandable? They don't take Aesop's Fables or the Santa Claus legend literally?
    It is understandable because it is the bible. Think of the common meaning of that word.

    I don't disagree with your sentiment at all by the way.

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  6. #86
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    There are market solutions for unsafe practices
    And those market solutions don't yield acceptable results in the real world. It is never acceptable for a company to knowingly endanger unwitting costumers, and companies have repeatedly shown that they'll do that when they think they can get away with it. Lawsuits are not a solution, because not everyone can afford to hire a lawyer or pay off the judge. In a world where businesses were unregulated, a man could lose his family in a house fire due to a faulty furnace, and if he couldn't afford to take the manufacturer to court (assuming he had a case, which he wouldn't if there were no regulations), his only option would be to suck it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    if workers are hurt or die, then that business will either go out of business or they'll have to pay much higher wages.
    If that were the case, there never would have been such a thing as slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    There are many effective treatments today (3BP, a powerful cancer treatment) that are not on the market because of FDA regulations.
    My position is not that the FDA never makes poor decisions. My position is that regulations need to be in place to stop companies from harming people, which includes selling a therapy known to be ineffective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    There are market solutions for unsafe practices
    An injury to someone can't be prevented after the fact. If someone gets cancer because a company sold them a product laced with carcinogens without warning them about it, the customer's bad reviews on Amazon.com are not going to cure the condition. In all likelihood, the customer wouldn't even realize what caused the cancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    That's what Consumer Reports and newspapers are for.
    It's ridiculous to suggest that someone should need to buy a Consumer Report or a newspaper to avoid spending their money on snake oil or exposing themselves to danger when they buy a product that claims to be safe. Those are things that a company should not be offering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    If a business is selling carcinogens and still in business (cigarette companies), it's because there is a demand for that product and the consumer (who knows the risk) is willing to take the risk.
    No, it's because they know they can get away with it. Sometimes they get away with it due to legal loopholes that only require them to provide a warning, and sometimes they get away with it by omitting facts or telling lies. Carcinogens, as well as other harmful things do, in fact, regularly enter the human body through products sold at the store, and these products usually carry no warning. There is no knowledgeable person who would attempt to dispute that. It wouldn't be happening if the regulations were tighter. If companies were required to warn their customers about the pesticides in that bunch of apples, for example, then we really could start to talk about the market having a corrective mechanism built into it. People would stop buying those things, and higher quality products would start to appear.
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  7. #87
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    It is never acceptable for a company to knowingly endanger unwitting costumers, and companies have repeatedly shown that they'll do that when they think they can get away with it.
    Here's the problem with your argument. The most heavily regulated industry in the US is the banking industry and they were still able to rip off the american people. The educational system is similarly heavily regulated and we know which schools are underperforming but they continue to produce a bad product decade after decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    If that were the case, there never would have been such a thing as slavery.
    Slavery didn't occur under free market conditions. A free market is simply a happy and voluntary exchange of goods and services between parties. If you don't pay someone for his labor, that's not a free market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    My position is that regulations need to be in place to stop companies from harming people, which includes selling a therapy known to be ineffective.
    I would argue that the FDA has probably killed more people by restricting access to effective treatments.

    Those are things that a company should not be offering.
    That's always been the case, with or without regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    If companies were required to warn their customers about the pesticides in that bunch apples, for example, then we really could start to talk about the market having a corrective mechanism built into it. People would stop buying those things, and higher quality products would start to appear.
    There is already a market based solution to the pesticide problem: organic produce.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.
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  8. #88
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    But you know...no homo bro.
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  9. #89
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    Here's the problem with your argument. The most heavily regulated industry in the US is the banking industry and they were still able to rip off the american people. The educational system is similarly heavily regulated and we know which schools are underperforming but they continue to produce a bad product decade after decade.
    That doesn't argue against regulation. It argues for better laws and better enforcement of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    I would argue that the FDA has probably killed more people by restricting access to effective treatments.
    That may well be the case. It argues for a correction of the system, not an abandonment of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    Slavery didn't occur under free market conditions. A free market is simply a happy and voluntary exchange of goods and services between parties. If you don't pay someone for his labor, that's not a free market.
    Your original point was that businesses that engage in inhumane practices will lose customers and have to pay higher wages. That is not necessarily true in any kind of market I've ever heard of. A company can conceal its bad practices, and it can also choose to victimize people who are powerless, ignorant, or unlikely to be sympathized with. There are countless ways that a company in any kind of market can mistreat people and at the same time flourish, and regulation helps to curb some of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    There is already a market based solution to the pesticide problem: organic produce.
    Ironically, the reason organic produce is a (partial) solution to the pesticide problem (I say "partial," because people do not assume everything not labeled safe will harm them) is because there are regulations on use of the word "organic." "Organic" cannot be used to label produce with pesticides in it. In an unregulated market, the word would be meaningless like its unregulated synonym "natural" currently is.

    The only one who would ever have anything to fear from a properly regulated market is a business willing to engage in unsavory practices for its personal gain.
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  10. #90
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    We begin with equal access to good schools by implementing school choice.
    How do we ensure that access is indeed equal, or that schools are any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm not sure why you think charities are a failure. The Red Cross, the Salvation Army, and Meals on Wheels still do great work.
    The quality of their work is fine; the quantity inadequate to meet even existing needs. 100 years ago when there was much less of a "social safety net" than there is now, the disparity was much greater. We've done that experiment, and it is a failure in human terms. Of course, not everyone reckons in human terms.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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