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  1. #61
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    There shouldn't be any consumer protection laws.
    You're placing an abstract principle on a higher level than basic good sense. If it weren't for consumer protection laws, a lot of people, possibly including yourself, would be dead right now. And you can't be a practicing libertarian as you lie dead in the grave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach
    Competition will automatically spur businesses to produce higher quality products (for example, the Intel vs AMD microchip wars).
    No, competition will automatically spur businesses to try and put each other out of business, which does not entail refraining from unsafe practices. Our consumer protection laws are already sufficiently lax that you can go to a typical pharmacy and purchase products containing known carcinogens. These products are often intended to be eaten, inhaled, or applied to the skin. The companies continue to manufacture this stuff not because it's high quality but because they know they can get away with it. That's a form of violence, which is something I would have thought a true libertarian would be opposed to.
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  2. #62
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There shouldn't be any consumer protection laws. The word gets out if a company is selling a faulty product and they'll go out of business. Every year, thousands of bad restaurants go under and there is no need for any governmental body to tell us that a business sucks. We'll find out. What is needed is competition. Competition will automatically spur businesses to produce higher quality products (for example, the Intel vs AMD microchip wars). Furthermore, many stores and businesses already offer warranties and refunds without any government laws.
    If businesses couldn't hide information, or generate misinformation, and citizen consumers were both able and willing to take time out of their lives to sufficiently research every service and product they buy and inform others of their findings, and upon that information, act rationally, then your analysis might actually been correct. However, that obviously doesn't describe reality.

    Of course, the discussion of competition amongst businesses is not itself a debate about whether or not there should be more or less government, since businesses can collude or monopolize without a government and a government can use regulations to create competition.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Aaannnnnyyy whoooo.... the actual topic.

    To me, this conversion therapy seems like any other instance of someone selling drugs that don't actually do anything, and should be treated the same way. Does it matter if these people believe they are actually doing something right? If there is no evidence that it works, there is evidence that it does not work, and if they disregard all of this and any requests to desist, then it's still harmful for all of the reasons peddling any snake oil is harmful, is it not? How does their own faith enter into this?

    That is, if they do have faith. The other problem with letting their intentions count is that it's incredibly hard to tell if someone is selling bad medicine out of ignorance or malice. We'll never know, and it will do damage either way, so it might as well be treated as fraud.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #64
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Aaannnnnyyy whoooo.... the actual topic.

    To me, this conversion therapy seems like any other instance of someone selling drugs that don't actually do anything, and should be treated the same way. Does it matter if these people believe they are actually doing something right? If there is no evidence that it works, there is evidence that it does not work, and if they disregard all of this and any requests to desist, then it's still harmful for all of the reasons peddling any snake oil is harmful, is it not? How does their own faith enter into this?

    That is, if they do have faith. The other problem with letting their intentions count is that it's incredibly hard to tell if someone is selling bad medicine out of ignorance or malice. We'll never know, and it will do damage either way, so it might as well be treated as fraud.
    except that the drugs that don't do anything, don't cause harm either at least not directly, like conversion therapy has.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #65
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    No, competition will automatically spur businesses to try and put each other out of business, which does not entail refraining from unsafe practices.
    Lots of tablets on the market; competition is good and drives down costs by motivating businesses to be more efficient. There are market solutions for unsafe practices; if workers are hurt or die, then that business will either go out of business or they'll have to pay much higher wages. Once again, competition for labor will solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    Our consumer protection laws are already sufficiently lax that you can go to a typical pharmacy and purchase products containing known carcinogens.
    Hardly. It takes on average $400 million to bring a drug to market. There are many effective treatments today (3BP, a powerful cancer treatment) that are not on the market because of FDA regulations. If a business is selling carcinogens and still in business (cigarette companies), it's because there is a demand for that product and the consumer (who knows the risk) is willing to take the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan
    If businesses couldn't hide information, or generate misinformation, and citizen consumers were both able and willing to take time out of their lives to sufficiently research every service and product they buy and inform others of their findings, and upon that information, act rationally, then your analysis might actually been correct.
    That's what Consumer Reports and newspapers are for.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #66
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That's what Consumer Reports and newspapers are for.
    What is to keep companies from buying them? You seem to operate on the thinking pattern that people will be fair, good, and just when given the opportunity. Studies have proven that with money and power, they just aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.
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  7. #67
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Obviously he was influenced by the Old Testament: there was no New Testament yet. More importantly, however, early Christians considered themselves Jews.


    Her posts are being attacked for being willfully ignorant, offensive, atrociously argued, reactionary concoctions of old lies and delusions. If you go around insulting people's intelligence left and right, you cannot expect to be well-received.
    I guess thinking about it some more, it could be that the bible is the greatest collection of wisdom all in one place that's ever been assembled. However it was written by man and is a reflection of the time it was written. There is stuff in there that is either simply wrong or no longer applies (like eating unclean things which probably made sense for health reasons when it was written). I tend to pay more attention to things that Jesus actually said vs others. I think there are an awful lot of people who take everything literally which is understandable.

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  8. #68
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadingRainbows
    What is to keep companies from buying them? You seem to operate on the thinking pattern that people will be fair, good, and just when given the opportunity. Studies have proven that with money and power, they just aren't.
    If Consumer Reports is bought out or goes out of business, other product review services will arise (Angie's List, for example). Heck, you can get product reviews from bloggers. There are plenty of popular restaurant bloggers right now.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #69
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    its not even half way about abortion though.
    You jinxed it.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    You jinxed it.
    is it now about abortion? are we reading the same thread?
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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