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  1. #21
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, you responded to it a number of times.

    It was a week or two ago or something. I reviewed the judge's decision to bar JONAH's "experts" testimony from the courtroom, except for the one expert whose testimony was actually relevant. But he threw out Nicolosi and the irrelevant NARTH guys.

    Basically for those commenting in this thread on the topic without having read what this particular case was actually about:

    JONAH had promised a particular outcome beyond what could be promised to its clients, and some of the treatments were emotionally damaging over the long term. So some of the patients were suing for a (1) refund for the treatments they had paid for and (2) payment for the additional treatments they had to undergo from OTHER therapists to help them get over the abuse they suffered at the hands of JONAH. That's all, and it sounds fair -- like a typical malpractice / false advertising case.

    The judge did toss one of the former patients off the case because it didn't seem like the guy actually suffered real emotional distress that needed to be compensated for, but left the others stay since their treatments had been more severe.


    EDIT: as far as "gay conversion therapies" go, personally if adults want to buy into that shit because of their personal views or religious beliefs, well, we let people peddle lots of stuff in this country with little validity. (Note the recent herbalism expose, where it seems like some of the major chains don't include or barely include any of the herbs they claim are in the supplements.) But there's a ton of advertising in the USA that is dubious in nature. So whatever.

    But I'm really against kids being forced to go to "pray the gay away" camps by their parents. Parents can monitor their child's physical activity with partners regardless of sexual preference; but I consider it emotionally damaging and possibly abusive to send a kid to that kind of program. A child can choose to enter a program like that when they are an adult. And I think that is the purpose of the CA law, when I read about it --kids can make that decision when they are legal adults, rather than having it forced on them.
    Oh. Uh I don't remember that but I'll look tomorrow I'm sleepy and avoidant right now (not you, room mates, so I'm playing possum)
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #22
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    Furthermore, the Bible prohibits men from sleeping with each other
    No, it doesn't. The Bible states that men should not lie with men as they do with women. Since a man would presumably never suck a woman's penis or allow her penis to penetrate him, these particular sexual acts are allowed for gay men. What gay men are not allowed to do is engage in cunnilingus or vaginal intercourse with each other, which most of them wouldn't want to do anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    God clearly made one woman for each man
    False. Jesus, who had a penis and was an aspect of God, was single, remains single, and single forever will he be.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    People become gay oftentimes because of issues that happen to them in childhood
    People oftentimes become religious because of issues that happen to them in childhood.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    I think it's also intensely interesting when man decides he knows more than God about these things
    Yes, like when man decides to put words in God's mouth by writing blatantly flawed books (If I were to ask you to describe the qualities of a perfect book, you would, unless deliberately trying to describe the Bible, describe something more perfect than it. And an imperfect being doesn't write imperfect books.) and claiming these books were sent down from heaven.
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  3. #23
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    There is not a single rational argument, at all, period, for asserting that being gay is wrong or harmful (on an internal level). You will be completely unable to come up with one.
    What if a boy has gay feelings but wants to commit to his divine partner who is a female? What if he knows his gay feelings stem from never feeling loved by his father, and being abused by his mother; that the receptor sites and synapses in his brain over time became set to seeking out the love of a male father figure or boy figure because he desperately needed to feel the love and protection he never got from his dad, or because he wants to feel--up close and personally--how it feels to love himself as the boy he never really got to be? What if he suspects that resetting those receptors and synapses, with God's healing help, might set him back to right again, before he had feelings of being gay?

    If he continues on being gay when he knows that he became gay for wrong reasons, is that not harmful?

    Is it not like telling someone who overeats for emotional reasons that it's okay to be fat; that they were made that way, and they need to just embrace their large size? Wouldn't diet and exercise programs to help people be their ideal weight also be 'harmful' because they imply that being fat is bad and unhealthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    No, it doesn't. The Bible states that men should not lie with men as they do with women. Since a man would presumably never suck a woman's penis or allow her penis to penetrate him, these particular sexual acts are allowed for gay men. What gay men are not allowed to do is engage in cunnilingus or vaginal intercourse with each other, which most of them wouldn't want to do anyway.
    Wow. I admire your ability to twist scripture to fit your imagination. It reminds me of this quote:

    And so it may not happen that a person when cursed, blesses himself instead, saying, “I shall have peace, even though I walk in the imagination of my heart.” ~Deuteronomy 29:19

    False. Jesus, who had a penis and was an aspect of God, was single, remains single, and single forever will he be.
    I was not making a finite statement here. I have addressed this issue elsewhere and did not feel like going into depth on it here. I do not believe God made a woman for every man, no. And sometimes He makes a woman for more than one man, as in the case of widowhood.

    People oftentimes become religious because of issues that happen to them in childhood.

    Yes, like when man decides to put words in God's mouth by writing blatantly flawed books (If I were to ask you to describe the qualities of a perfect book, you would, unless deliberately trying to describe the Bible, describe something more perfect than it. And an imperfect being doesn't write imperfect books.) and claiming these books were sent down from heaven.
    I became born again because of my Beloved, and because of circumstances I got myself into by abandoning God.

    I really only like to read the Bible now, I have come to find. Though I do enjoy various internet readings when it is a subject of deep fascination for me.

    You put (incorrect) words into God's mouth when you speak about the sexual acts He means between men and women.

    I believe the Bible is as perfect a work into the mind of God as we have. I believe most of the writing in it was inspired by holy men and women of God. I believe the Bible is a guidebook to living a holy and perfect life, inasmuch as possible. But I believe His Holy Spirit has dominion over a person's soul, not the Bible.
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  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Oh. Uh I don't remember that but I'll look tomorrow I'm sleepy and avoidant right now (not you, room mates, so I'm playing possum)
    My apologies. Apparently I'M the one who is brain-dead and confused that conversation with a different one I had with you at the same time. Lol! Anyway... yup, you were right. Sorry. But the post with the link is there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    People should be allowed to be set straight, if they so choose. Does this mean insurance will not pay for it, since they cannot call it a disorder?

    People can convert. People become gay oftentimes because of issues that happen to them in childhood; from deep seated issues with the parent of the same gender, or from trauma occurring from the opposite gender. Furthermore, the Bible prohibits men from sleeping with each other, and God clearly made one woman for each man. I think it's also intensely interesting when man decides he knows more than God about these things, when God is the One who created man.

    Of course, tolerance for everyone's choice is how we should live, but that goes for those who do not want to be gay, and seek out help to fix it in themselves.

    Isn't this reverse discrimination?
    God this. God that. Tell me, what if the "God" of which you speak were gay and forgot to tell you? Did the thought ever enter your head people are born gay and it's not a choice, or something to be tolerated? Shall I enter conversion therapy for my brown eyes in case they should really be blue?
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  6. #26
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My apologies. Apparently I'M the one who is brain-dead and confused that conversation with a different one I had with you at the same time. Lol! Anyway... yup, you were right. Sorry. But the post with the link is there.
    wait you thought I was brain-dead and confused ?
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Anyway, to examine this case in more detail:
    Gay 'Conversion Therapy' Consumer Fraud Ruling First in U.S. | New Jersey Law Journal

    In a decision believed to be the first of its kind in the U.S., a New Jersey state court judge has found that it is a misrepresentation that violates the state Consumer Fraud Act to advertise gay “conversion therapy” services by depicting homosexuality as abnormal or a mental illness.
    That's true. The primary bodies of psychological professionals in the US do not consider it to be abnormal or a mental illness, by the specific definitions of such things. Typically those who want to "cure" homosexuality are doing so from a religious, not professional, basis.

    Ruling in Ferguson v. JONAH, on Feb. 10, Hudson County Assignment Judge Peter Bariso Jr., further held that touting “success” statistics for such services in the absence of a factual basis also amounts to consumer fraud.
    "Success" is a dubious term, statistically. Even the main religious organizations to "fix gays" typically keep falling into disrepair as their leaders become ex-ex-gay. Everything is hearsay; and often results are "temporary" and could just be out of personal conviction / willpower versus any kind of actual treatment (aside from what amounts to aversion/abuse therapy).

    Joseph Osefchen of DeNittis Osefchen in Marlton, N.J., said he agreed with the holding in principle, adding that, as a lawyer who has done class action litigation almost exclusively for over 20 years, he saw conversion therapy advertisements as “a class action waiting to happen” because “you are talking about statements in ads that are seen by hundreds of people.”
    That's kind of scary.

    Bariso granted partial summary judgment to the plaintiffs, four young men who obtained gay conversion therapy–referred to by the court as sexual orientation change efforts, or SOCE—through Jews Offering New Alternatives for Healing (JONAH), plus two of their mothers.
    They received PARTIAL summary judgment. So let's see what that means.


    In deciding the summary judgment motion, Bariso took judicial notice of “the general consensus in the mental health field that homosexuality is not a mental disorder but is instead a normal variation of human sexuality.” Thus, “any representations made to the contrary would qualify as []misrepresentations under the CFA,” Bariso said in a statement of reasons accompanying the order.

    JONAH had tried to justify statements that homosexuality is unhealthy based on information from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control about HIV and AIDS but Bariso noted that he had already determined such evidence was irrelevant in ruling on the experts because the case does not turn on any harms that might be caused by homosexual conduct.
    See above. But this is the basis for the decision and for excluding the NARTH "experts" from the testimony based on their proposed testimony.

    Regarding JONAH’s touted success rate, Bariso acknowledged there were factual disputes about it but held as a matter of law that it is a misrepresentation in violation of the CFA “to use specific success statistics in advertising and selling of services when client outcomes are not tracked and records are not maintained.”
    Hence "misrepresentation," since they can't substantially promise anything.

    The plaintiffs also wanted Bariso to hold that it was a CFA violation to say you can change someone’s sexual orientation even if they continue to feel such desire and are merely altering their behavior.

    That did not constitute “change” in the common sense and could be misleading, they had urged.

    Bariso, however, said he was convinced that an average juror could find “change” to mean “choosing not to act on homosexual desires” or to disengage from them and thus the issue was not ripe for summary judgment.
    This is a key point that establishes more credibility for the judge, as he allows for "change" to mean not necessarily "change" as in "not being gay" but simply that one could learn ways in which not to choose to act on homosexual inclinations. And that seems to be the way these ministries have been slowly changing over the years -- admitting they can't actually change the orientation in the typical situation.

    ...

    So the result of the case is as follows:

    The opinion “set out the law and explained what a plaintiff has to prove,” said Lina Bensman of Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton in New York, one of the plaintiffs’ attorneys. “You can’t cheat gay people out of money by telling them that they’re sick. I’m not aware of any court that has said that before.”

    Nor can you mislead people with statistics that induce them to believe you’ve measured when you haven’t, Bensman said. JONAH has used varying success rate figures as high as 70 to 75 percent either in its advertising or in its sales pitches to people who call or email for more information, she said.
    AGA, all of that is irrelevant. We're talking about legality here in a court of law, not about what your personal spiritual beliefs are. You can believe whatever you want and can promote your morality as you see fit; but the law doesn't change in this regard. You can always help adults for free who come to you and want to try to alter their behavior, you just can't make false claims of efficacy or promote it as a business, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    wait you thought I was brain-dead and confused ?
    No, apparently that would be me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    God this. God that. Tell me, what if the "God" of which you speak were gay and forgot to tell you? Did the thought ever enter your head people are born gay and it's not a choice, or something to be "tolerated." Shall I enter conversion therapy for my brown eyes in case they should really be blue?
    Hi.

    But I do believe it is a choice, usually a subconscious choice, sometimes a conscious one.

    I pegged you for a blue eye'd guy.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  9. #29
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Anyway, to examine this case in more detail:
    Gay 'Conversion Therapy' Consumer Fraud Ruling First in U.S. | New Jersey Law Journal



    That's true. The primary bodies of psychological professionals in the US do not consider it to be abnormal or a mental illness, by the specific definitions of such things. Typically those who want to "cure" homosexuality are doing so from a religious, not professional, basis.



    "Success" is a dubious term, statistically. Even the main religious organizations to "fix gays" typically keep falling into disrepair as their leaders become ex-ex-gay. Everything is hearsay; and often results are "temporary" and could just be out of personal conviction / willpower versus any kind of actual treatment (aside from what amounts to aversion/abuse therapy).



    That's kind of scary.



    They received PARTIAL summary judgment. So let's see what that means.




    See above. But this is the basis for the decision and for excluding the NARTH "experts" from the testimony based on their proposed testimony.



    Hence "misrepresentation," since they can't substantially promise anything.



    This is a key point that establishes more credibility for the judge, as he allows for "change" to mean not necessarily "change" as in "not being gay" but simply that one could learn ways in which not to choose to act on homosexual inclinations. And that seems to be the way these ministries have been slowly changing over the years -- admitting they can't actually change the orientation in the typical situation.

    ...

    So the result of the case is as follows:



    AGA, all of that is irrelevant. We're talking about legality here in a court of law, not about what your personal spiritual beliefs are. You can believe whatever you want and can promote your morality as you see fit; but the law doesn't change in this regard. You can always help adults for free who come to you and want to try to alter their behavior, you just can't make false claims of efficacy or promote it as a business, I guess.



    No, apparently that would be me.
    good thing is you don't need a helmet, save money.

    yeah 75% is blantant false advertisement that's not even trying to look like it's not at this point
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #30
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    People should be allowed to be set straight, if they so choose. Does this mean insurance will not pay for it, since they cannot call it a disorder?

    People can convert. People become gay oftentimes because of issues that happen to them in childhood; from deep seated issues with the parent of the same gender, or from trauma occurring from the opposite gender. Furthermore, the Bible prohibits men from sleeping with each other, and God clearly made one woman for each man. I think it's also intensely interesting when man decides he knows more than God about these things, when God is the One who created man.

    Of course, tolerance for everyone's choice is how we should live, but that goes for those who do not want to be gay, and seek out help to fix it in themselves.

    Isn't this reverse discrimination?
    People don't GET set straight. It is not a state of mind, it is a physiological thing. You cannot get 'set straight' anymore than you can get blue eyes from brown. Either you are, or you are not. Imagine for just a moment if the tables were turned any ANYONE was trying to tell you you shouldn't be with a man. You'd flip them the bird, call them stupid, crazy, whatever, and go on about your day. It is not a choice. It is something you are born with. "believing" it is a choice doesn't make it so. I can 'believe' I got hazel eyes because I chose them, but the reality is I didn't. I didn't choose them. I was born with genetics that created them. "I believe it is a choice" is a stupid shitty cop out answer to something you refuse to change out of stubbornness of not wanting to be SO wrong that you're actually offensive.

    People get all muddled up in the business of 'if I'm straight' or 'I'm not sure' for social reasons. Because they don't want backlash from society, and their parents, they don't WANT to know they're gay, and so they deny it, or get 'confused', etc. etc. when it should be really obvious. On top of that, most humans are on a spectrum.. meaning they aren't 'just gay'. This shining example is best shown off in prison: Lacking sex, men convert to gay sex... then when they're out of prison, they're straight and attracted to women of their own accord. Most people don't ever notice the spectrum in their lives because, honestly, the world is a prude world full of assholes that don't want to accept what's human or not. It's all black and white: Straight, gay, bi. Like no one can be anything else. People think in absolutes like that: No straight man can be okay with having an experimental fling with a guy when he's young and confused and curious. No gay woman can be attracted to a guy. Bi people are just selfish.

    It doesn't work like that. It shouldn't even BE an issue in the first place, but because people make it an issue and unfortunately religion is VERY often to blame for that shit, and so you have people wanting to convert, or change.

    If it was just a 'normal' thing for people to want to convert, sure.. but is NOT normal. Because it is on par with being obsessed with changing your eye color to match the rest of your family. It isn't healthy, it makes no sense, and it isn't right on any level.
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