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  1. #171
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Well, let's see. In the last 18 months, I've been to 4 gay weddings. 2 more this summer. You know what? Nothing happened except these couples got married. It had no impact on my marriage or my norms or my life. Those couples got to experience the happiness my husband and I have experienced in our marriage. They are protected by the same laws and enjoy the same spousal benefits we do. Again, I don't know why this conversation is still going on. Gay marriage is no threat to heterosexual marriage. The only threats that there are ones you make up in your own mind.
    They also finally have some long-terms studies on kids raised by same-sex parents (since that has been going on for years), and in terms of emotional and intellectual health the kids are doing as well as or better than kids raised by het parents.

    So yeah. I think it's been a non-issue for awhile, but some folks just haven't cared to read the memo yet.
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  2. #172
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Well, let's see. In the last 18 months, I've been to 4 gay weddings. 2 more this summer. You know what? Nothing happened except these couples got married. It had no impact on my marriage or my norms or my life. Those couples got to experience the happiness my husband and I have experienced in our marriage. They are protected by the same laws and enjoy the same spousal benefits we do. Again, I don't know why this conversation is still going on. Gay marriage is no threat to heterosexual marriage. The only threats that there are, are ones you make up in your own mind.
    Ceecee a couple in the UK did get put out of business for being honest about having a problem with providing B&B accomodation to two same sex men, a counsellor did get fired and prevented from taking up employment again as a guidance counsellor because he was honest enough to say he could not relate to what the same sex couple was referring to as their love, relating is pretty important in counselling, the guy could have lied and done a half assed job but he was honest and suffered as a result, he wasnt saying they should be deprived of counselling just that he couldnt personally deliver it.

    This all happened, I didnt make it up, I didnt imagine it.

    Now I'm sure that you dont mind people being put of business or work because they dont share your opinions but I'm a little disappointed to hear it.

  3. #173
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    They also finally have some long-terms studies on kids raised by same-sex parents (since that has been going on for years), and in terms of emotional and intellectual health the kids are doing as well as or better than kids raised by het parents.

    So yeah. I think it's been a non-issue for awhile, but some folks just haven't cared to read the memo yet.
    Well if that isnt telling on you right there.

    Glad to hear the kids are doing well, I'm sure there's a lot of heterosexual couples still managing to parent well, seeing as its been taken for granted for the greater part of human history and got us right were we are to talk about it.

  4. #174
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Ceecee a couple in the UK did get put out of business for being honest about having a problem with providing B&B accomodation to two same sex men, a counsellor did get fired and prevented from taking up employment again as a guidance counsellor because he was honest enough to say he could not relate to what the same sex couple was referring to as their love, relating is pretty important in counselling, the guy could have lied and done a half assed job but he was honest and suffered as a result, he wasnt saying they should be deprived of counselling just that he couldnt personally deliver it.

    This all happened, I didnt make it up, I didnt imagine it.

    Now I'm sure that you dont mind people being put of business or work because they dont share your opinions but I'm a little disappointed to hear it.
    And this is grounds for being against gay marriage and thinking it's wrong? I don't think so.
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  5. #175
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well if that isnt telling on you right there.

    Glad to hear the kids are doing well, I'm sure there's a lot of heterosexual couples still managing to parent well, seeing as its been taken for granted for the greater part of human history and got us right were we are to talk about it.
    I'm referring to study results. The kids in some cases were in better shape in academics and openness, in the opinion of the people running the study. If you DON'T like that, go out and do some honest research yourself instead of making this about "some kind of bias" on my part.

    Since you have Missed The Point Once Again, it's this: Gay and straight parents both do fine, so prohibiting gay married couples from adopting and raising kids on the basis of them being gay is no basis at all. Again, some people don't bother to read the memo, apparently.
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  6. #176
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well if that isnt telling on you right there.

    Glad to hear the kids are doing well, I'm sure there's a lot of heterosexual couples still managing to parent well, seeing as its been taken for granted for the greater part of human history and got us right were we are to talk about it.
    Jesus christ you will do anything to take something as a slight. That's telling? Talk about snide.

    She was NOT implying to be better than anyone. You just want her to imply that so you can justify your pathetic little imaginary fight against homosexual tyrrany. She pointed out fact obtained by a study. That doesn't make homosexuals better, and anyone who think so needs to get their head examined. What she IS pointing out is that they are equal.

    Insinuating that she has some agenda is not only paranoid and passive aggressive. Its just down right mean spirited.

    It is truly unbelieveable what you will do to make this into something you can fight. You really, really need to sort your priorities out.
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  7. #177
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you mean by accept?

    I know that I've benefited from growing up as I have with views and opinions of my parents generation and community, I've done alright and think that future generations, if I cant make the world a better place for them, should at the very least benefit from the same advantages I've had. Its the least they deserve.

    The acceptance that you speak of is, in my experience, when I've examined the literature of gay rights, engaged in any exchange on the topic or spoken to any homosexual men or women been a euphenism for something other than live and let live and leaving people to their own devices.

    In every single TV show in the UK now there's at least one homosexual or queer storyline, the TV shows which dont feature homosexuality in one shape or fashion are the exception, and the critics who've considered this an aggressive "normalisation", ie normative, strategy are generally condemned as bigots but does it reflect reality at all? I'm really not sure it does and think there has to be something else at work when this is the case.
    I do tend to think it's from the same line of thinking which spawned positive discrimination.

    I was appalled to learn that in politics it has been decided that 50% of politicians should be female and so it's fixed that certain elections are represented by only females from a party. Nothing about democracy or letting the people decide who they want.

    It's silly really. I've never excluded anyone for being gay and most of the time I don't even contemplate the question of someone's sexual preference. It's irrelevant to most things. Ergo I never considered the inclusion of the occasional gay character, right up until Torchwood. Suddenly every character is mixing their sexuality and it feels like when someone shines a torch in your eye. You have two options, to shut your eyes or stare defiantly. The thing is this is no better than telling everyone you meet to follow your faith. Leave them be in the hope that they can see the value of your passions, don't force it upon them.

    Sure stereotypes need to be broken. The entrenched need to be approached. However, by laying in the first rounds with an artillery like barrage will only force people to adopt defensive positions if they are even close to the line you which to attack. It would be better to sever the heads, to snipe the officers and create disunity where previously a united front stood. Take their best and most vicious fighter and reduce him or her to a mewling wreck.

    I do support equality but I don't think that the current trend of movements and counter movements to do much except prolong the battle.

    The battle for the equality of sexes has raged for longer than any here have lived. Still they argue that not enough chief executives are female. Never do they consider that perhaps more males want the job than females. There may be theoretical equality but in reality we see a more complex picture.

    A good example is where my wife can pretty much follow me into a changing room at a shop where as I must be kept several yards from the entrance to the changing area because I am male. Quite obviously I am not in control of my libido and would assault the moose like creatures scurrying into those chambers as they try to make a silk purse.

    To be fair though, I've only met one homosexual who drew up battle lines. Most seem at ease with their decision and proceed bravely and with honour. Those people I would wish to live up to. The exception.... Let's just say a team of psychologists could retire from his defensiveness alone.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #178
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    And this is grounds for being against gay marriage and thinking it's wrong? I don't think so.
    It is a common circumstance though that one a characteristic is considered to be "protected" then what follows is a lot of poor decisions made by people who want to make sure you know that they're "cool".

    I recall reading through discrimination law and thinking "Oh wow, I'm part of a minority who can be legally discriminated against because I don't have any claim to special measures".

    Certain measures need to be in place to make sure that people are as equal as is feasible. However subdividing humanity like some eclectic music collection and calling it multi anything - ism doesn't make sense to me. If you want to unify then the first step should not be to divide. If you are saying that unity is impossible then perhaps it is you who has lost faith in your fellow human, perhaps it is you that has become the *ist in the piece.

    (should state... Not YOU you but the general you like one... Bloody text, no intonation...)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #179
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Marriage is a relationship between a man and woman, its always meant that, its the received norm and is likely to carry on being so. Now what do for people who think its the state's role to change that? Why should it change to be anything other than that?
    Until you tell me what YOU mean by "received norm", I cannot comment on this statement. It is not the role of the state to dictate, encourage, discourage, or otherwise show preference to any individual relationship. That is between consenting adults. If the state is going to allow some formalization of domestic partnerships for the purpose of taxes, inheritance, property ownership, next-of-kin identification, etc. they must make this available to all such partnerships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Legal protections leading in the UK to guidance counsellors being rendered unemployed and excluded from counselling practice and bed and breakfast owners being excluded from running their business.

    Given that there's no heterosexual equivalents again this actually looks a little like legal privileges to me, as a socialist the idea of privileging anyone doesnt sit too well, least of all backing it with the power of the state, maybe its just the sobering history of socialism which makes me feel that way.
    I'm sure if a guidance counselor or bed-and-breakfast owner refused service to heterosexuals, they would run afoul of the law also. This is not legal privilege for gays, just putting them on a par with straights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I didnt explain it because its something I regard as self-evident, there's a dirth of material on the topic, not least of which wikis if you want to read up on it. I'd invite you to if you're interested.
    First, if by "dirth" you mean "dearth" that is a scarcity, which seems contrary to your intended meaning. Second, I don't want to read up on it, or know how some Wikipedia author defines norms. I am conversing with you here, and want to know how you are using it in the present discussion. Refusing to explain is lazy at best, cowardly at worst. That assumes that you really do want to be understood clearly.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #180
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I see. I read your post as pointing almost towards the whole want to call it marriage instead of a civil partnership which has been available here for some time.

    I do think though that trying to educate people to accept homosexuality will probably get counter productive before it works. It seems to me that the less something is put over with passion, the more likely it is to fade into normalcy (which is the goal here). Hence my concern over challenging religion on its own turf.
    Yeah, but I live in Texas, where sodomy (gay or otherwise) was still technically illegal until 2003, and men were actually charged for sodomy within my lifetime when police burst into a household and caught them in their own private home. Marriage, of any kind... secular civil union or otherwise, is illegal for homosexuals.

    I don't see why people would want to mince meat with 'civil union' for homosexuals but call atheist heterosexuals 'married'. That seems silly and out of sorts. If 'civil union' was what people typically called married couples outside of religious ceremony, then yeah I could see it for sure. Married if you were married in a gay-friendly church, civil union if you were married at the ole' JP. But since it's all called married, I don't think civil union is appropriate. I think it's just one more stupid thing bigoted people try to shove in there to make a distinction between their vastly-superior-hetero marriage and those dirty homosexuals loving each other for the rest of their days.

    I agree that it needs to fade into normalcy.. but without passion for the subject, that just won't happen for now. Once laws are clear and in place and things are settled, yeah I suspect the subject will very quickly die down with a bunch of LBGT supporters throwing a big party when all 50 states wake up. Alabama will give those guys a while to plan that party I suspect.
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