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  1. #161
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Although my own belief that sexual orientation is fixed like that isnt going to please bisexuals or any of the male and female homosexuals I've actually known in person, all of whom have insisted pretty much upon anything, anything at all, bar the legitimacy of heterosexuality, preferring instead, for reasons they never held forth on with me personally, to believe that you're bisexual or you're homosexual and there's no accounting for how heterosexuality has existed or persisted up until now. Personally, I think that could be overcompensating, I dont know, seems to be a lot of that in the same community, as I've witnessed much more in the way of steady affirmation, reaffirmation and reinforcement among homosexuals about homosexuality than I've ever witnessed of heterosexuals about heterosexuality.
    So this lies at the core of your delusion: You met some homosexual morons whose extremist views offended your delicate love of established notions so profoundly that you immediately convinced yourself that they shall be forever representative of all non-straight people.

    O Lark, you have fought bravely to preserve this tiny piece of experience over the years, crushing hopes of understanding with every throw of your mental club, but it is time for you to accept that you can only lose the battle of evidence, because your information is just not good enough.

    I bet if you try really hard, you can even see it yourself.
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  2. #162
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I have never heard a single person speaking for gay marriage state that they are working towards getting others to abandon THEIR norms. They are asking for the same norms heterosexuals embrace. That's the biggest issue I have with opponents of this. Gay folks marrying will have absolutely zero impact on any other marriage, beliefs, expectations, etc. I have no idea why this conversation is still going on anywhere.
    I think its got everything to do with who started it Ceecee but I dont expect you to agree with that.

    I hope you are right BTW about it all having no societal impact what so ever, meet you back on this forum in a couple of years and see what say you?

    I dont rate the odds of this political topic's extinction very highly.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    That'll be those bad examples I mentioned, you can choose to treat those as representative, in which case carry on.

    Its all got no baring on people like myself who've views which dont deserve to be ridiculed in quite the same way and who're at best highly skeptical but you still succeed in feeling dont deserve to be persuaded of any point at all.

    Maybe you can pass a law? That's generally how it goes.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That'll be those bad examples I mentioned, you can choose to treat those as representative, in which case carry on.
    Your sarcasm detector is broken. Perhaps those queer people you met, the ones who tried to steal your precious norms, also just made a few jokes you failed to get.
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  5. #165
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If marriage was purely religious, I'd agree. But it is not. A LOT of financial, political, and other connotations come with marriage.. and on top of that, many people marrying now-a-days are not christian. Atheists are allowed to marry one another. They don't require a church, or proof of worship, nothing like that. Taxes, housing, children, and all sorts of things are tied to marriage. Which pushes it into a clear realm of non-religious. And the non-religious aspect is what I see. I don't agree with forcing churches to marry gays.. no one is saying that here, and I definitely did not imply that.. but I do believe in forcing the government to recognize same-sex secular marriages (JP-style marriages, etc.) as legitimate as religious ceremonies.

    So far as the demonizing..a lot of it depends on interpretation. Someone mentioned earlier how easily a book can be interpreted to mean both 'gay sex is okay' and 'gay sex is bad'.
    I see. I read your post as pointing almost towards the whole want to call it marriage instead of a civil partnership which has been available here for some time.

    I do think though that trying to educate people to accept homosexuality will probably get counter productive before it works. It seems to me that the less something is put over with passion, the more likely it is to fade into normalcy (which is the goal here). Hence my concern over challenging religion on its own turf.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #166
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The legal partnerships of heterosexuals should be called civil partnerships as well. That's all the government can offer to any domestic partnership. Leave anything beyond that to religious and cultural groups, where they can make their own rules, and people consent to them freely.
    I dont really have a problem with that, do you think all the people who've fought hard to redefine marriage as something other than its always meant will be fine with that? I dont think so. I remain to be persuaded of that point.

    Just what norms do you think "everyone else" will be expected to abandon? The norm of marrying someone of the opposite sex, or the norm of expecting everyone else to live as they do? I don't hear gay folks criticising heterosexuals for marrying someone of the opposite sex, just for expecting that they (gays) do the same.
    Marriage is a relationship between a man and woman, its always meant that, its the received norm and is likely to carry on being so. Now what do for people who think its the state's role to change that? Why should it change to be anything other than that?

    We already build lecture halls with about 10% of the desks designed for left-handed people. Do you think gay couples, once married or civilly joined, will need more accomodation than this? I doubt they will need even as much. Blacks, Jews, Muslims, and people with peanut allergies already receive more.
    See what you're talking about there, I consider that reasonable adjustment, I think that's taken place already. Homosexuality for the most part has been decriminalised, there's already publically funded welfare organisations, which from what I can tell peform no greater role than reassuring or reinforcing homosexual orientations any way they can in anyone whose so much as thought about it, of a kind which there are no heterosexual equivalent and special legal protections.

    Legal protections leading in the UK to guidance counsellors being rendered unemployed and excluded from counselling practice and bed and breakfast owners being excluded from running their business.

    Given that there's no heterosexual equivalents again this actually looks a little like legal privileges to me, as a socialist the idea of privileging anyone doesnt sit too well, least of all backing it with the power of the state, maybe its just the sobering history of socialism which makes me feel that way.

    You never did explain just what you mean by a "norm". Is it a statistical average over some population or sample set? Is it a rule of thumb for living? Something else?
    I didnt explain it because its something I regard as self-evident, there's a dirth of material on the topic, not least of which wikis if you want to read up on it. I'd invite you to if you're interested.

    I think its interesting, I think its important too, a lot of the opposing opinions arising from the French revolution and lasting since have corresponded to views about norms, traditions and social institutions, whether they ought to be respected or conserved for posterity and the benefits of future generations or can be changed up and dispensed with with impunity or at least an abscence of any and all negative consequences.

    Personally I think there is a very good analogy with memory in a personal or individual sense, anyone who'd consider amnesia every could of years in an individual to be a healthy thing should watch Memento, what's unhealthy in an individual is only likely to have magnified corresponding consequences at a societal level.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I see. I read your post as pointing almost towards the whole want to call it marriage instead of a civil partnership which has been available here for some time.

    I do think though that trying to educate people to accept homosexuality will probably get counter productive before it works. It seems to me that the less something is put over with passion, the more likely it is to fade into normalcy (which is the goal here). Hence my concern over challenging religion on its own turf.
    What do you mean by accept?

    I know that I've benefited from growing up as I have with views and opinions of my parents generation and community, I've done alright and think that future generations, if I cant make the world a better place for them, should at the very least benefit from the same advantages I've had. Its the least they deserve.

    The acceptance that you speak of is, in my experience, when I've examined the literature of gay rights, engaged in any exchange on the topic or spoken to any homosexual men or women been a euphenism for something other than live and let live and leaving people to their own devices.

    In every single TV show in the UK now there's at least one homosexual or queer storyline, the TV shows which dont feature homosexuality in one shape or fashion are the exception, and the critics who've considered this an aggressive "normalisation", ie normative, strategy are generally condemned as bigots but does it reflect reality at all? I'm really not sure it does and think there has to be something else at work when this is the case.

  8. #168
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    How do you feel about Bizarro Lark's opinions on Catholic partnerships, Lark? Or, being a rational man, what do you think about them? Do you think that Bizarro Lark is right to place more importance on language and norms than on people? Do you perhaps see a potential for Catholic discrimination in Bizarro Lark's opinion that Catholics ought to be satisfied with civil partnerships?

    Bizarro Lark sure does feel strongly that Bizarro English has had its feelings hurt, and he seems certain that Catholics and Catholic-supporters are just conflating two separate terms for political purposes! I guess Bizarro Lark's feelings and vague suspicions trump all other concerns in the Bizarro universe, eh?
    I'd love to say that I thought this discussion wouldnt end in trolling but I think I've come to expect it at this point, I'll leave you all to it.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Are you trying to insult me or something? It's not working.
    No. As it happens I was wasting my time.

    I dont plan on repeating that mistake.

  10. #170
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think its got everything to do with who started it Ceecee but I dont expect you to agree with that.

    I hope you are right BTW about it all having no societal impact what so ever, meet you back on this forum in a couple of years and see what say you?

    I dont rate the odds of this political topic's extinction very highly.
    Well, let's see. In the last 18 months, I've been to 4 gay weddings. 2 more this summer. You know what? Nothing happened except these couples got married. It had no impact on my marriage or my norms or my life. Those couples got to experience the happiness my husband and I have experienced in our marriage. They are protected by the same laws and enjoy the same spousal benefits we do. Again, I don't know why this conversation is still going on. Gay marriage is no threat to heterosexual marriage. The only threats that there are, are ones you make up in your own mind.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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