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  1. #111
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with this, right up until you conflate God with the whole thing, you had to drop that in and spoil your point.
    OK, I take God off the table.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The reality is that your conversion experience is only likely to benefit those seeking your conversion, for a lot of them its an exercise in over compensating for their private doubts by seeking to win over new adherents to their views and opinions.

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    You want to let us in on the joke?

  4. #114
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with this, right up until you conflate God with the whole thing, you had to drop that in and spoil your point.

    The reality is that your conversion experience is only likely to benefit those seeking your conversion, for a lot of them its an exercise in over compensating for their private doubts by seeking to win over new adherents to their views and opinions.

    There's no mistake that much of modern day evangelism and neo-dogmatism like solo scripture grew out of a time in world history when the first profound doubts and mid life crisis were being witnessed among most of the opinion formers of the day.
    Sola Scriptura seems to me to have come along as part of the Protestant Reformation, against the ossification and corruption with the Catholic Church; somewhere in the mix is also the translation of the Bible from the Latin into the vernacular...

    Whoops. Sorry, @Jennifer. Stopping *again* for the usual reasons...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #115
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    the quantity inadequate to meet even existing needs.
    Considering that we've spent $20 trillion fighting poverty since LBJ, I think that speaks volumes. Why not end all social welfare programs and give that $20 trillion to the needy via private charities? Also, the most effective anti-poverty program is a job. Why not cut a bunch of job killing regulations such as Obamacare? Let's build the Keystone Pipeline and develop domestic oil resources. That would create lots of high paying jobs.

    People wonder why I bring up free market solutions so often; it's because many of the problems we face are due to anti-free market policies.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #116
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    people have to be like being gay is wrong . so we must allow a harmful therapy that doesn't work at all and has been proven that it doesn't and causes harm, because being gay is wrong #Idon 'tObjectivelyThinkIfMyMoralsAreHarmfulOrNOT. #rabberabble
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #117
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Considering that we've spent $20 trillion fighting poverty since LBJ, I think that speaks volumes. Why not end all social welfare programs and give that $20 trillion to the needy via private charities? Also, the most effective anti-poverty program is a job. Why not cut a bunch of job killing regulations such as Obamacare? Let's build the Keystone Pipeline and develop domestic oil resources. That would create lots of high paying jobs.

    People wonder why I bring up free market solutions so often; it's because many of the problems we face are due to anti-free market policies.
    America is an excellent example of a free market (or as good as you'll get in today's environment). Those that have chase the American dream. Those that don't are denigrated, ignored and generally trodden on.

    Business are in business to make money. Not to look after you or provide a good service, unless doing so brings in more money. They are self serving.

    In this free market would you also keep the ridiculously loose employment laws? No minimum wage, employers able to basically mistreat their employees because they have the money?

    The idea that the workforce can simply move if they don't like it is simplistic and frankly ignorant. I cannot afford to up sticks and move my entire family to the next town hoping to huge work. I'd have to be paid a whole lot more to make travelling work and I'd have the same crummy security of when my boss becomes a douche for money, I can repeat the whole expensive process.

    The best free market you'll find is the drugs trade. Go delve in and revel in it. How's their customer care?

    The judges ruling was just. You can't have people promising things they can't deliver and taking money for it. It's fraud.

    Regardless of their theocratic delusions or not, they were proved to not work, or not work sufficiently well to take honest people's money for it.

    If you really are just trying to help then use the churches money or perhaps the righteous will fund it. You can't take it with you and you can't serve God and mammon both.

    As for people's orientations, that's your business, however I have limited patience for all the minorities which keep creating themselves. I'm in a minority because I lack a minority to hide behind. Stand on your own two feet and you'll have my respect and support. Whine behind some ridiculous set of rules trying to set up a modern day animal farm and I'll oppose you.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
    Likes prplchknz, Hard liked this post

  8. #118
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    I am going to start that I find your way of writing very eliptical, unclear, and difficult for me to understand, so if I misinterpret things I appologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think you're an excellent representative of your position.
    Explain. This is vauge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I also think you wouldnt be able to stand in a critical position of it for love nor money and you should think about it.
    This also vauge. You mean that I can't handle this argument? Try me. Er, I am already doing it. There are areas of debate on homosexuality where I'll stop because the issues aren't as cut and dry and they're often just silly. Others though, such as the validity of it, I do not stop pushing back against because it isn't an argument in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    While homosexuality is liable to be valid for a very few,
    All people who are homosexual are valid. Being homosexual does not make someone invalid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not even talking about a factionally small population in direct proportion to what would appear to their ability to command public attention and demand public validation and constant reinforcement for their supposedly innate or intrinsic orientation,
    Ok then don't. Lest this derail into something that this isn't about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    it isnt ever going to be the norm for everyone else and their own personal finding that it isnt for them and isnt valid for them is fine too. Although a lot of people are going to struggle with that and on a fierce defensive, as your post amply demonstrated.
    It isn't the norm, and that is irrelevant. You're derail the issue at hand that I am discussing: the validity of being homosexual, and if that is inheriently right or wrong. Every time this debate comes up, you yank it into your little pet "the majority is being oppressed!" debate. Quite frankly, that argument itself is a steaming pile of horseshit. I am not going to address it any further if you continue to bring it up, as it is a derail.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The idea that the only dangerous thing could be invalidating is patently absurd, why should it be in question whether societal expectations validate your private sexual orientation?
    I did not say that. You're putting words in my mouth or misunderstanding what I said. The danger and harm that comes from bring up false debates over whether being homosexual is ok or not is dangerous, because it leads to society treating it poorly, and treating those individuals poorly. We can look at history to see what this effect is so it isn't even a question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've been heterosexual all my days and never worried too much about the madness I felt was reflected in public opinions about it,
    Madness against heterosexuality? Jesus christ you're paranoid and sensitive. That isn't even an issue! There are some in the movement that are complete fuckheads and think that straights "don't understand our plight and are lesser than us", but they are quite few and far between. If you're basing your stance on those individuals you really need to rethink your position because the level of influence they have is just a flash in the pan compared to everything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    still less about the people demonising heteronormativity as a sort of oppressive dictatorship, its not something I see reflected in the schools of thought struggling to vindicate homosexuality. Constantly struggling. As though the thing would reach extinction if you forgot for a moment there was a struggle on about it.
    I'm sorry, but this is just laughable, silly, and sad (I actually laughed out loud about this for the record, startling someone in my office). I have no idea how your views on this became so twisted and fucked up. I mean it's just, where do I even start? No matter, this is another derail attempt. I had to pause to laugh at it though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ts a dangerous thing to suppose that the authorities should dictate public opinion and that the state can be a sort of big brother keeper and protector, all fine so long as its your opinion and not the opposite, which is missed in this entire thing.
    If the public opinion is harmful, then they absolutely should influence and change what it is.

    This is also leading into your pathetic pet issue and I am not addressing it. The prospective I am getting is you're trying to turn this discussion into a point where you can argue your personal misgivings with homosexuality, and how the norm is being oppressed. Come on.

    Also, on a personal level, I don't give a shit about feeling oppressed or not. Why should I let it get to me? I've been lucky and felt very little compared to the vast majority of homosexuals I've met, but if it becomes a problem I push back against it.
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  9. #119
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    Business are in business to make money. Not to look after you or provide a good service, unless doing so brings in more money. They are self serving.
    The two are not mutually exclusive. A good restaurant pays close attention to what the public wants and caters to those desires. It's self-serving but both parties benefit.

    In this free market would you also keep the ridiculously loose employment laws? No minimum wage, employers able to basically mistreat their employees because they have the money?
    An employer who mistreats his employees won't stay in business long. That too is the beauty of a free market system. There is competition for labor. I'm opposed to a minimum wage because it hurts minorities and those with limited work experience; minimum wage prices out those at the bottom who are struggling the most. A business is less likely to hire an unskilled teenager when the minimum wage is $15/hour. We're already seeing the devestation of a $15/hour minimum wage in San Francisco with a very popular bookstore that's been in business for 30 years being forced to close its doors.

    The idea that the workforce can simply move if they don't like it is simplistic and frankly ignorant.
    Read the Grapes of Wrath; migrations for better work happen everyday. People are leaving California and New Jersey by the millions to places like Texas and North Dakota, where the jobs are.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #120
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Considering that we've spent $20 trillion fighting poverty since LBJ, I think that speaks volumes. Why not end all social welfare programs and give that $20 trillion to the needy via private charities? Also, the most effective anti-poverty program is a job. Why not cut a bunch of job killing regulations such as Obamacare? Let's build the Keystone Pipeline and develop domestic oil resources. That would create lots of high paying jobs.

    People wonder why I bring up free market solutions so often; it's because many of the problems we face are due to anti-free market policies.
    As Glenn Reynolds, Yale Law Graduate, U of Tennessee Law Professor, and author of the blog Instapundit likes to say, because doing these things would present insufficient opportunities for graft.

    Full Disclosure for the squeamish -- he's an odd duck, being a pro-abort atheist gun-owning libertarian who is sympathetic to religious expression.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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