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  1. #101
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Quite the contrary. I want to give people all the tools they need to succeed and that means smaller government. If people need help, there are private charities all too willing to help.
    Sooomebody was never forced to read The Jungle in school. ..
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  2. #102
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    Kinda reads like 50 Shades.
    Not a bit, given that Jonathan had kept his own father from killing David.
    You know, like the time Saul tried to pin David to the wall with a spear.

    The relations between Saul, and David, and Jonathan were, in modern speak, "...it's complicated."
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  3. #103
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You know, I've seen you call out your own thread hijacks on multiple occasions now. Why not stop hijacking threads and just create a new one to discuss topics of interest to you? Kind of a good rule for everyone, I think.
    OK, except that this time, I didn't pursue it, only set out the vague direction of the hijack, and then stopped.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  4. #104
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    The claims of the seller, regardless of their intent, will be proven to be false, sure. But fraud, in the legal sense at least, is defined in part by deliberate deception on the part of the seller.
    Once something is publicly disproven, however, continuing to press the false claims becomes a deliberate choice, not an honest error.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    https://news.vice.com/article/judge-...reaking-ruling


    we've known for decades it doesn't work nor should it, so its a bit sad that its taken this long for steps to be taken to make it illegal. The practices should've been shut down when dsm decided homosexuality was no longer a disorder back in the 70s it's now 35 years later. I guess better late then never
    I think its a shame that the once categorisation of homosexuality as a disorder has lead, via a political correct cultural paradigm shift, to an inability to properly understand either homosexuality or heterosexuality or the consequences for individuals of sexual orientation becoming a cultural and political football.

    There are people who for a variety of reasons identify with homosexuality and then choose not to, in the UK the experience of this population of "hasbians" or "yestergays" (before you laugh too much they are prejorative terms created to abuse and ostrachise "traitors" to the gay community, nice idea from a very accepting group wouldnt you say?) has been documentated on a micro and personal scale but its dismissal out of hand as worthy of nothing but ridicule has been marked.

    There's a lot of things which can contribute to confusion in sexual orientation, and its not, by any means, the case that anyone confused about it is automatically a closeted homosexual, although most of the time this is what I'm pretty sure the liberal media and advocates would have everyone believe. Bipolar disorders, other chemical imbalances of brain and body, sometimes caused by disease, can and do influence orientation, attachent styles or legacies of childhood trauma being channelled in particular ways, there are correlates, just as there are also cultural and political pressures too. The jokes about how willing to experiment with political lesbianism college feminists are being in direct proportion to how firmly they will embrace the nuclear family and monogamous fidelity later in life are not that far off the mark.

    The reality however is that most of this cant be discussed, you second guess homosexuality and you're a bigot, religiously motivated, probably contemplating violence, probably a closet homosexual, all of which, by design, is about closing down debate and discussion which is too difficult, closing minds and referencing the obviously absurd examples, such as conversion therapies, is all part of that too. What about Jungian theories about integration of male and female archetypes in the mature psyche? Or Anthony Stevens or even Berne's theorising of sexual orientation? Its all dismissed whole sale as too dangerous and deadly despite in its day doing a lot to explain without going to the length of validating, advocating and aggressively promoting as the norm.

    You got to ask yourself if this sort of thing was how other topics were treated if you would think about it in the same way and I'm willing bet dollars to dimes that you'd be concerned about it.
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  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Once something is publicly disproven, however, continuing to press the false claims becomes a deliberate choice, not an honest error.
    When it comes to therapy there is a lot of snake oil, there's a lot of what actually works is disputed as to exactly why it does work in the first place.

    So its something it does serve to be careful about being confident about error as it pertains to.

  7. #107
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The reality however is that most of this cant be discussed,
    Oh it can be, the problem is most of the time the discussions aren't even remotely logical or sound and ultimately is a waste of time and causes more problems than it seeks to address.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    you second guess homosexuality and you're a bigot,
    Exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    religiously motivated,
    It quite frequently is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    probably contemplating violence,
    Very unlikely, but it happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    probably a closet homosexual,
    Unlikely, but this also happens, and I have also personally see it happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    all of which, by design, is about closing down debate and discussion which is too difficult,
    It is about closing down a debate, because there is none to begin with. It has nothing to do with difficulty, it;s actually extremely simple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    closing minds and referencing the obviously absurd examples, such as conversion therapies, is all part of that too.
    It has nothing to do with closing or opening minds. The example is not absurd either, it's a real thing that happens, and a real present problem that causes measurable harm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What about Jungian theories about integration of male and female archetypes in the mature psyche? Or Anthony Stevens or even Berne's theorising of sexual orientation? Its all dismissed whole sale as too dangerous and deadly despite in its day doing a lot to explain without going to the length of validating, advocating and aggressively promoting as the norm.
    These can be debated, because no one really knows what causes homosexuality. As it stands, it appears that there are many many things that can cause it to arise ranging from the biological to the soceital. Where it comes from though, doesn't invalidate it. It merely is what it is. If the debate is found to trying to invalidate homosexuality as somehow wrong, corrupt, an ailment, or failure, then yes, it is dangerous.

    Homosexuality already is valid, and always has been. That's why when someone questions it, it's shut down. There is no debate on it's validity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You got to ask yourself if this sort of thing was how other topics were treated if you would think about it in the same way and I'm willing bet dollars to dimes that you'd be concerned about it.
    Topics are treated this way when they are settled, and people refuse to accept that.
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  8. #108
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    It is interesting that conversion and therapy are used in the same breath.

    And in a more general sense conversion is seen as a therapy.

    If we convert, we are told, our lives will be better.

    Convert to our religion, convert to our ideology, convert to our paradigm, hey even convert to our product, and convert to our sexual preference. You will feel better, you will be better, and everyone will love you, as God ordains.
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  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Oh it can be, the problem is most of the time the discussions aren't even remotely logical or sound and ultimately is a waste of time and causes more problems than it seeks to address.




    Exactly.




    It quite frequently is.




    Very unlikely, but it happens.




    Unlikely, but this also happens, and I have also personally see it happen.




    It is about closing down a debate, because there is none to begin with. It has nothing to do with difficulty, it;s actually extremely simple.




    It has nothing to do with closing or opening minds. The example is not absurd either, it's a real thing that happens, and a real present problem that causes measurable harm.




    These can be debated, because no one really knows what causes homosexuality. As it stands, it appears that there are many many things that can cause it to arise ranging from the biological to the soceital. Where it comes from though, doesn't invalidate it. It merely is what it is. If the debate is found to trying to invalidate homosexuality as somehow wrong, corrupt, an ailment, or failure, then yes, it is dangerous.

    Homosexuality already is valid, and always has been. That's why when someone questions it, it's shut down. There is no debate on it's validity.




    Topics are treated this way when they are settled, and people refuse to accept that.
    I think you're an excellent representative of your position.

    I also think you wouldnt be able to stand in a critical position of it for love nor money and you should think about it.

    While homosexuality is liable to be valid for a very few, I'm not even talking about a factionally small population in direct proportion to what would appear to their ability to command public attention and demand public validation and constant reinforcement for their supposedly innate or intrinsic orientation, it isnt ever going to be the norm for everyone else and their own personal finding that it isnt for them and isnt valid for them is fine too. Although a lot of people are going to struggle with that and on a fierce defensive, as your post amply demonstrated.

    The idea that the only dangerous thing could be invalidating is patently absurd, why should it be in question whether societal expectations validate your private sexual orientation? I've been heterosexual all my days and never worried too much about the madness I felt was reflected in public opinions about it, still less about the people demonising heteronormativity as a sort of oppressive dictatorship, its not something I see reflected in the schools of thought struggling to vindicate homosexuality. Constantly struggling. As though the thing would reach extinction if you forgot for a moment there was a struggle on about it. Its a dangerous thing to suppose that the authorities should dictate public opinion and that the state can be a sort of big brother keeper and protector, all fine so long as its your opinion and not the opposite, which is missed in this entire thing.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It is interesting that conversion and therapy are used in the same breath.

    And in a more general sense conversion is seen as a therapy.

    If we convert, we are told, our lives will be better.

    Convert to our religion, convert to our ideology, convert to our paradigm, hey even convert to our product, and convert to our sexual preference. You will feel better, you will be better, and everyone will love you, as God ordains.
    I'm inclined to agree with this, right up until you conflate God with the whole thing, you had to drop that in and spoil your point.

    The reality is that your conversion experience is only likely to benefit those seeking your conversion, for a lot of them its an exercise in over compensating for their private doubts by seeking to win over new adherents to their views and opinions.

    There's no mistake that much of modern day evangelism and neo-dogmatism like solo scripture grew out of a time in world history when the first profound doubts and mid life crisis were being witnessed among most of the opinion formers of the day.

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