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Thread: antihellenism

  1. #21
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    Agreed. For instance, many of the US founders were radical liberals compared to their European counterparts, but its easy to overlook that fact and focus solely on the fact that many were slave owners.

    edit: I'm not putting down your statement or disagreeing with what I'm about to say, but the Greeks basically took mob rule (democracy in its most base form) and turned it into something more civil and useful.
    thanks.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    As for what brought this on? What do you mean by this?
    Like I said, anti-Greek hate isn't something I've ever run into before. So where are you hearing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Got a primary source about the entire younger boy thing? I've heard that before through secondary sources and tertiary but primary sources are lacking and many historians have negated this view to the lover view. This is part of the racism and hate speach I allude to whereby people re-write history without any primary sources - hint primary sources must be written in the contemporary language of ancient greek to qualify.
    Fair enough. I'm not certain that pedophilia was part of the deal, but I definitely remember reading a book describing the older-man-younger-man practice of ancient Greece, and there was a photo of a Greek urn with very explicit engravings. Still, it wasn't a primary source so it could have been wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Also, as for marriage...there is no equivalent to today marriage in the ancient world. In the ancient world marriage was a pantheistic thing and there were certainly same sex marriages and we know this both from primary cources and from teh fact that there were marriages under deities who were gay and lesbian.
    I know that marriage didn't work quite the same way it does today; marriage in different parts of the world today don't even work the same! Thus, I used 'permanent gay relationship/marriage.'

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    So you see, what you are asking for is not providable given the fact that what marriage is today is not what it was before and uncomparable. But as for unions between men and men and women and women, yes that did occur in the temple of Sapho among other deities as well.
    What I'm asking for is a primary source for what you claim; the permanent gay relationship/marriages, the female generals, and anything else you can provide. I want to believe you, but right now it's your word against theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Again, try not to fall into the traps of generalization. Athens was one small tribe in Greece. Generalizing in these sorts of endeavors is akin to the false logic of racism whereby we assume the whole is equal to its parts.
    Are you telling me that the Hellenistic pantheon was not shared by all of the Greek city-states? Again, I'd love to have a primary source for that.

  3. #23
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Like I said, anti-Greek hate isn't something I've ever run into before. So where are you hearing it?


    Fair enough. I'm not certain that pedophilia was part of the deal, but I definitely remember reading a book describing the older-man-younger-man practice of ancient Greece, and there was a photo of a Greek urn with very explicit engravings. Still, it wasn't a primary source so it could have been wrong.


    I know that marriage didn't work quite the same way it does today; marriage in different parts of the world today don't even work the same! Thus, I used 'permanent gay relationship/marriage.'


    What I'm asking for is a primary source for what you claim; the permanent gay relationship/marriages, the female generals, and anything else you can provide. I want to believe you, but right now it's your word against theirs.


    Are you telling me that the Hellenistic pantheon was not shared by all of the Greek city-states? Again, I'd love to have a primary source for that.
    my bad. I thought you were being antagonistic at first so my apologies.

    Regarding marriages in ancient greece and pantheism, or paganism as it is referred to today, well that is a difficult beast to tackle. In pantheistic faiths it depends what god or goddess is emphasized. There are not many primary sources other than how pantheism was practice by other people. In all cultures and what we know about marriage is sparce, even music from that period is almost entirely lost since Christians burned down all that stuff.

    But there are some anthropologists who have revealed the nuances of cults during this period and the different types of marriages. I will post when i can..
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #24
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    i guess the French do have some grit after all.
    Martel >>> Hebdo
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  5. #25
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Like I said, anti-Greek hate isn't something I've ever run into before. So where are you hearing it?


    Fair enough. I'm not certain that pedophilia was part of the deal, but I definitely remember reading a book describing the older-man-younger-man practice of ancient Greece, and there was a photo of a Greek urn with very explicit engravings. Still, it wasn't a primary source so it could have been wrong.


    I know that marriage didn't work quite the same way it does today; marriage in different parts of the world today don't even work the same! Thus, I used 'permanent gay relationship/marriage.'


    What I'm asking for is a primary source for what you claim; the permanent gay relationship/marriages, the female generals, and anything else you can provide. I want to believe you, but right now it's your word against theirs.


    Are you telling me that the Hellenistic pantheon was not shared by all of the Greek city-states? Again, I'd love to have a primary source for that.
    From wikepedia
    "A same-sex union was known in Ancient Greece and Rome,[2] ancient Mesopotamia,[3] in some regions of China, such as Fujian province, and at certain times in ancient European history.[4] These same-sex unions continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, which prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome and ordered that those who were so married were to be executed. [5]"

    Thats a tertiary source citing a secondary source. I'm sure the book in the footnote has a primary source reference, or one to another secondary source reference that alludes to a primary source reference.

    Edit: Primary sources
    "Numerous examples of same sex unions among peers, not age-structured, are found in Ancient Greek writings. Famous Greek couples in same sex relationships include Harmodius and Aristogiton, Pelopidas and Epaminondas and Alexander and Bogoas. However in none of these same sex unions is the Greek word for "marriage" ever mentioned."

    There you go...Greece is not only the foundation upon which Feminism owes its existence but also the foundation of Gay rights, hence demonstrating that it is the most liberal culture ever. So next time I hear someone say that Greeks were sexist I can educate them on the truth and how ignorant they are and racist.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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