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Thread: antihellenism

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    i guess the French do have some grit after all.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    okay fine! They have a lot of grit.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    ...So what brought this on, Garrot? Can't say I've ever heard anyone be particularly down on the Hellenes, but then I like in the U.S., so I probably miss a lot of European hate-speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The Greeks had the first Women generals as well or first lady military leaders.

    Also they were the first society to accept and have full fledged gay rights and they were also the only society that bought slaves and then freed them.
    Ooh, I did not know this! I knew that love/sex/lust was a thing between Greek men and younger men/boys, but not that permanent gay relationships/marriage was accepted. Got a source I can point the haters toward?

    It's true that the Hellenes had a lot of great things going on; Athens had democracy and Socrates, and I love the Hellenistic pantheon! But as you note, sexism is not a binary attitude; the Hellenes were apparently less sexist than other cultures of the time...but the last time I checked even Athenian women couldn't vote. So by modern standards*, even Athens was a relatively sexist culture. Not to mention states like Sparta, which I suspect were much more conservative.

    *Well, the more enlightened modern standards.

  4. #14
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    ...So what brought this on, Garrot? Can't say I've ever heard anyone be particularly down on the Hellenes, but then I like in the U.S., so I probably miss a lot of European hate-speak.


    Ooh, I did not know this! I knew that love/sex/lust was a thing between Greek men and younger men/boys, but not that permanent gay relationships/marriage was accepted. Got a source I can point the haters toward?

    It's true that the Hellenes had a lot of great things going on; Athens had democracy and Socrates, and I love the Hellenistic pantheon! But as you note, sexism is not a binary attitude; the Hellenes were apparently less sexist than other cultures of the time...but the last time I checked even Athenian women couldn't vote. So by modern standards*, even Athens was a relatively sexist culture. Not to mention states like Sparta, which I suspect were much more conservative.

    *Well, the more enlightened modern standards.
    Got a primary source about the entire younger boy thing? I've heard that before through secondary sources and tertiary but primary sources are lacking and many historians have negated this view to the lover view. This is part of the racism and hate speach I allude to whereby people re-write history without any primary sources - hint primary sources must be written in the contemporary language of ancient greek to qualify.

    Also, as for marriage...there is no equivalent to today marriage in the ancient world. In the ancient world marriage was a pantheistic thing and there were certainly same sex marriages and we know this both from primary cources and from teh fact that there were marriages under deities who were gay and lesbian.

    This was before the Christian massacre of thousands of pagans and the genocides.

    So you see, what you are asking for is not providable given the fact that what marriage is today is not what it was before and uncomparable. But as for unions between men and men and women and women, yes that did occur in the temple of Sapho among other deities as well.

    As for the idea that certain Greeks committed acts of sodomy...that is hate speech and there are no primary sources of evidence except posed indirectly by dubious professors and proponents of antihellenism.

    As for what brought this on? What do you mean by this?
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  5. #15
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    Default From Hypatia to the Renaissance

    Ancient Greece bestrode the Pagan world, and the lingua franca of the Pagan world was Ancient Greek, a lovely language. Indeed the New Testament was first written in Ancient Greek.

    But the Christians hated the Ancient Greeks to such an extent they burned the Pagan library of Alexandria, skinned the librarian, Hypatia, alive and dragged her though the streets of Alexandria.

    The Christians assassinated the character of the Pagan Ancient Greeks to such an extent that even today the word Pagan is pejorative.

    Fortunately the New Testament was written in Ancient Greek, so in the Scriptoriums of the Christian monasteries the New Testament was copied along with all the ancient texts of Ancient Greece, so that the Ancient Greek of the New Testament could be better understood.

    These Ancient Greek texts, preserved in the Christian monasteries, led to the rebirth or the Renaissance of Ancient Greek culture, literature, art, science, and architecture, within Christianity.

    So Christianity first destroyed Pagan Ancient Greek culture, but there was a trojan horse within the sacred text of Christianity, which led to the rebirth or Renaissance of Pagan Ancient Greek culture within Christianity.

    And so today the West is based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity, and the Enlightenment.
    Last edited by Mole; 02-07-2015 at 06:38 AM.
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  6. #16
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    ...So what brought this on, Garrot? Can't say I've ever heard anyone be particularly down on the Hellenes, but then I like in the U.S., so I probably miss a lot of European hate-speak.


    Ooh, I did not know this! I knew that love/sex/lust was a thing between Greek men and younger men/boys, but not that permanent gay relationships/marriage was accepted. Got a source I can point the haters toward?

    It's true that the Hellenes had a lot of great things going on; Athens had democracy and Socrates, and I love the Hellenistic pantheon! But as you note, sexism is not a binary attitude; the Hellenes were apparently less sexist than other cultures of the time...but the last time I checked even Athenian women couldn't vote. So by modern standards*, even Athens was a relatively sexist culture. Not to mention states like Sparta, which I suspect were much more conservative.

    *Well, the more enlightened modern standards.

    Again, try not to fall into the traps of generalization. Athens was one small tribe in Greece. Generalizing in these sorts of endeavors is akin to the false logic of racism whereby we assume the whole is equal to its parts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Ancient Greece bestrode the Pagan world, and the lingua franca of the Pagan world was Ancient Greek, a lovely language. Indeed the New Testament was first written in Ancient Greek.

    But the Christians hated the Ancient Greeks to such an extent they burned the Pagan library of Alexandria, skinned the librarian, Hypatia, alive and dragged her though the streets of Alexandria.

    The Christians assassinated the character of the Pagan Ancient Greeks to such an extent that even today the word Pagan is pejorative.

    Fortunately the New Testament was written in Ancient Greek, so in the Scriptoriums of the Christian monasteries the New Testament was copied along with all the ancient texts of Ancient Greece, to that the Ancient Greek of the New Testament could be better understood.

    These Ancient Greek texts, preserved in the Christian monasteries, led to the rebirth or the Renaissance of Ancient Greek culture, literature, art, science, and architecture, within Christianity.

    So Christianity first destroyed Pagan Ancient Greek culture, but there was a trojan horse within the sacred text of Christianity, which led to the rebirth or Renaissance of Pagan Ancient Greek culture within Christianity.

    And so today the West is based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity, and the Enlightenment.

    Brilliant. EDIT: Thank you for this paraphrasing of events. It means a lot.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I've notice a lot of uneducated people make false assumptions or pretentious remarks such as the fact that Ancient Greek society was sexist among other things.

    This is absolutely disgusting misappropriation of history. During the time of Ancient Greece the city states within the Hellenic boundaries were progressive liberal by standards of neighboring countries. Just look at the historical evidence of the nomadic lifestyle of the Germanic tribes to the North in which raping entire villages for resources and people was common practice.

    The Greeks had the first Women generals as well or first lady military leaders.

    Also they were the first society to accept and have full fledged gay rights and they were also the only society that bought slaves and then freed them.


    It is shame that such racist sentiments pervade much common-folk thought and I hope this has opened your eyes to the racism lurking in others as well as in you should you project such things on to the Greeks.

    Just remember, it were the Greeks who were responsible for defeating the Nazis and it were the Greeks responsible for much of our current knowledge.

    Only two other countries lost as many to the Germans as the Greeks. The Greeks lost 10 percent of their population and were third place for most casualties in terms of relative population.

    Also remember that the Greeks after WII received to reparations from Germany and were ousted from the conference illegally by a stroke of fraud by those at the conference upon which current Nazi enterprises are built. Remember that next time you buy a bmw.
    Well, it varied from city-state to city-state, but you're right.
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  8. #18

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    I've always been fascinated by the cultural synthesis which occurred after Alexander swept through Asia.

    Buddha statues that look more like Apollo, for instance.

    Also, the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire. I prefer the name Constantinian Empire myself. They never spent much time on Byzantium when I was in school. I actually had a history teacher in the 7th grade who didn't know what that was. Seriously, when I asked her when we were going to cover the Byzantine Empire, she thought I was talking about Star Trek and chastised me, making me look like a fool in front of my classmates. That more or less marked the point when I gave up on school.

    I know this is kind of off topic though.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    I've always been fascinated by the cultural synthesis which occurred after Alexander swept through Asia.

    Buddha statues that look more like Apollo, for instance.

    Also, the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire. I prefer the name Constantinian Empire myself. They never spent much time on Byzantium when I was in school. I actually had a history teacher in the 7th grade who didn't know what that was. Seriously, when I asked her when we were going to cover the Byzantine Empire, she thought I was talking about Star Trek.

    I know this is kind of off topic though.
    lol.

    Yeah. But to be quite honest and get slightly back on point even Athens was very progressive. The idea of voting, even though women could not vote, was still one step closer in the direction of women's rights since voting became a right in the first place only in Greece. We can only hold a country up to the standards of its contemporaries. We can't say Greece was sexist in all honesty because other countries at the time didn't even let women speak at the diner table, let alone all the pillaging, looting, and raping that was happening all over the place and all around Greece at the time.

    In other words the very fact that we are mentioning voting at a time when that was unheard of is amazing.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    lol.

    Yeah. But to be quite honest and get slightly back on point even Athens was very progressive. The idea of voting, even though women could not vote, was still one step closer in the direction of women's rights since voting became a right in the first place only in Greece. We can only hold a country up to the standards of its contemporaries. We can't say Greece was sexist in all honesty because other countries at the time didn't even let women speak at the diner table, let alone all the pillaging, looting, and raping that was happening all over the place and all around Greece at the time.

    In other words the very fact that we are mentioning voting at a time when that was unheard of is amazing.
    Agreed. For instance, many of the US founders were radical liberals compared to their European counterparts, but its easy to overlook that fact and focus solely on the fact that many were slave owners.

    edit: I'm not putting down your statement or disagreeing with what I'm about to say, but the Greeks basically took mob rule (democracy in its most base form) and turned it into something more civil and useful.
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