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  1. #81
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    My arguments are very rational. I've been studying international relations for years and I try to understand the ways Great powers work, how they mobilize support for their foreign policies, what are and are not effective diplomacy strategies. Unfortunately, I've used up several posts in this thread talking less about the main theme of the thread and more about the false assumptions some of the posters have made. When some of you guys are still posting that "the war on terrorism can be won" you assume a) that your government is actually trying to win the war on terrorism rather then using this as a pretext to continue its exploitation of oil b) you assume that a war on terrorism can be won when all the data indicates that it has only resulted in a proliferation of more terrorist organizations c) you assume that war is not terror when many intellectuals have argued that it's impossible to have a war on terrorism when war is terrorism (thus, a contradiction in terms).

    The point is that it's hard to get at the good stuff when you are still making countless false assumptions. And I think these false assumptions are because you're viewing everything through the State Department of Propaganda lens. If I can give one piece of advice, it is to not assign so much value to the political jargon of politicians and assign more value to the actual policies and what has worked throughout history. If the US learned anything from Vietnam it's that wars like this can't be won - guys like Kissinger know this deep down. But again, that Bush is even trying to win is something you assume. It's really all about oil. And as long as the war goes on the troops are there to secure Haliburton's assets and oil investments.

    And THOSE arguments are cogent. Your last several posts were not. Also, Russia is AT LEAST as big an antagonist in that region as the United States. That is inarguable. Putin is a warmonger and murderer, too.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And THOSE arguments are cogent. Your last several posts were not. Also, Russia is AT LEAST as big an antagonist in that region as the United States. That is inarguable. Putin is a warmonger and murderer, too.
    ? My posts are entirely cogent lol. I don't think any well-read person would have a problem extracting the main points in my posts as they're quite clear and cogent. Why can't you simply say you disagree and leave it at that. Now Putin is a murderer, warmonger, is that all you have? I thought the State Department of Proganda also calls him a "thug"?? Get real.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    ? My posts are entirely cogent lol. I don't think any well-read person would have a problem extracting the main points in my posts as they're quite clear and cogent. Why can't you simply say you disagree and leave it at that. Now Putin is a murderer, warmonger, is that all you have? I thought the State Department of Proganda also calls him a "thug"?? Get real.
    Now you're back to posts that don't make sense. There is no argument in the last two sentences whatsoever.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Now you're back to posts that don't make sense. There is no argument in the last two sentences whatsoever.
    Ever heard of sarcasm? Oh - my post on mushroom clouds was sarcastic too so might want to re-read that one as well.

  5. #85
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Democratic peace theory is used as propaganda by the West to advance their agenda. The mere fact is that the "civilized West" (especially Europe) has fought the most barbaric wars of the 20th century.

    Second, don't lump the US with Sweden and Canada. Sweden and Canada have substative democracies while US has a "liberal" democracy. The US makes a mess in the middle east and countries like Canada and Sweden try to help others by cleaning, we must not forget that Bush doesn't engage in "nationa building". We also have healthcare systems that protect us from cradle to grave and we seek alternative sources of information (something many Americans do not do and have a narrow view of reality because of this).

    More importantly, don't talk about american democracy when 80 000 american soldiers have been stop-lossed.

    This is getting off track though. If you want, respond to some of my original posts regarding the topic of the thread. My essential stance is that it is unwise for the US to get involved in Russia's near abroad.
    Yep, so very very predictable. As far as the original subject is concerned, it would be unwise to take a hands-off policy regarding Russia's near abroad; Russia (i.e. the Putin regime) has repeatedly demonstrated that it will test boundries and push as far as it believes it can get away with. This latest action was initiated after certain countries within NATO made it clear that they would not stick their neck out for Georgia. Now, we have to take steps to prevent Russia from appropriating the Crimean Penninsula and/or controlling the government of Ukraine, thereby providing them addition means through which to threaten and coerce European democracies. To use old international politics jargon, we have to prevent the "Findlandization of Europe" (no offence to Wildcat or other Findlanders, your country had little choice in the matter, and were able to retain what independence you had through your brave and brilliant resistance against the Soviet juggernaut).

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Yep, so very very predictable. As far as the original subject is concerned, it would be unwise to take a hands-off policy regarding Russia's near abroad; Russia (i.e. the Putin regime) has repeatedly demonstrated that it will test boundries and push as far as it believes it can get away with. This latest action was initiated after certain countries within NATO made it clear that they would not stick their neck out for Georgia. Now, we have to take steps to prevent Russia from appropriating the Crimean Penninsula and/or controlling the government of Ukraine, thereby providing them addition means through which to threaten and coerce European democracies. To use old international politics jargon, we have to prevent the "Findlandization of Europe" (no offence to Wildcat or other Findlanders, your country had little choice in the matter, and were able to retain what independence you had through your brave and brilliant resistance against the Soviet juggernaut).
    You've outlined a few optimistic benefits for the US without analyzing the costs of pursuing this policy which makes your analysis less meaningful. In some of my earlier posts I outline several consequences that make this an unwise policy. Perhaps you can't see it but if things escalate and Putin launches a few warheads over the North Pole to Washington you'll know all about it. It is a myth to think Russia is weak, a policy that fails to take Russia's strength into consideration is a very unwise policy.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Am I the only one who considers it a mite bit suspicious that Russia scheduled this little war to coincide so neatly with the olympics? "Quick, while they're all watching the olympics! Let's annex Georgia!"
    It's not a coincidence they did it during the Olympics. They know it will get far less coverage because of it.

    Incidentally, Ron Paul predicted this back in 2002, while discussing the stupidity of our attack on Iraq.
    YouTube - US Politician predicted Georgia Conflict Back in 2002

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Provoker, I just have to disagree. I won't try to argue that everything that happened in Russia in the 1990s was great (the crooked "privatization" schemes were particularly odious), but you do not become a great country by acting like a jerk and threatening smaller countries in your area, nor do you become great by lying to your general public, nor by silencing your opposition. Those are cowards' tactics.
    Do you really believe this? Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Vietnam, to name a few. Overthrowing any government we don't approve with covert or overt coup d'etats and bombings. Cowards tactics indeed. Or is it only cowardly, when the Russians do it?

  8. #88
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    "The devil went down to Georgia"... Anyhoo,... WW3 is on a fast approach... I hope the Olympics won't be affected too much. Coincidental that a lot of people from different countries are in one place... Russia invading Georgia, Canada and the U.S. name calling towards Russia... it's a good cocktail for something dark.

    I sense that August 23rd/2008 will be a day to remember.

  9. #89
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    You've outlined a few optimistic benefits for the US without analyzing the costs of pursuing this policy which makes your analysis less meaningful. In some of my earlier posts I outline several consequences that make this an unwise policy. Perhaps you can't see it but if things escalate and Putin launches a few warheads over the North Pole to Washington you'll know all about it. It is a myth to think Russia is weak, a policy that fails to take Russia's strength into consideration is a very unwise policy.
    I imagine the cost (and risk) would be considerable; I think cost (and risk) in doing nothing and hoping for the best is much higher. As for Russia's power, its much less than it was, and will detoriate faster than ours (have you checked out their fertility and death rates? No amount of oil and gas can make up for that even in the medium term)).

    I will say that I think Russia miscalculated; from their perspective, they should have waited untill the political situation in Ukraine was more opportune, and acted there first. They also probably shouldn't have alienated most of the international media.

  10. #90
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Do you really believe this? Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Vietnam, to name a few. Overthrowing any government we don't approve with covert or overt coup d'etats and bombings. Cowards tactics indeed. Or is it only cowardly, when the Russians do it?
    No, I really believe that. Putin is a coward and a murderer. I also believe that "b-b-but the United States did it, too!" isn't a valid argument. I wasn't talking about the United States (I'll criticize us in an American foreign policy thread). I don't know with whom you think you are arguing, but you seem to have me mistaken for a neocon. Perhaps you should read more of my posts before you attack me, because you really come off ignorant.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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