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  1. #61
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    ... you do not become a great country by acting like a jerk and threatening smaller countries in your area, nor do you become great by lying to your general public, nor by silencing your opposition. Those are cowards' tactics. It's bullying, and it sucks.
    It is a shame very few American presidents of the last century see it that about their very own behaviour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    This goes to the question of motive, and this is really pure speculation but I see motive on behalf of the Americans to manufacture a new enemy to mobilize republican support for the upcoming elections.
    Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really implying that Republicans put Putin up to this?

    As it stands, McCain is clinging to Bush's policies and the American people have had it with Iraq. It's a known fact that it was a sham and the people were lied to and it's costing the economy dearly. Americans want change.
    Actually, Americans just want to win. Most Americans were for the invasion, at first. If we would have pulled our troops out immediately after removing Saddam, the war would not have reached this level of unpopularity. It's unpopular because Americans are impatient. We want results now. We don't want to wait 5-10-20 years.


    In most presidential elections, it boils down to a single question that people ask themselves when they go to the ballot box. For this election, the main question so far is whether to keep the war policy in Iraq or bring the troops back.
    You're wrong again. You're on quite a roll. The primary issue is the economy. The energy price issue is huge.

    And so far the concensus is to bring the troops back, this is the essence of Obama's popularity among other things. However, because McCain has already clinged to his unwise strategy (it would have been more strategic to make the ballot question about something else for the republicans to have a shot) they're trying to manufacture a new enemy so that they can a) continue the military industrial complex and b) generate new enemies and fear of a war in which case the media will play to McCains war experience and give him a shot at winning the election. Being an experienced war veterine is only powerful if there is a war or something to be feared. If you want motive - there it is. But then we ask other questions, there is a powerful faction in the US that wants the troops kept in Iraq for oil. Despite it costing American taxpayers dearly, there is a small faction benefiting and if the troops are removed their investments are no longer secure. In my judgement, it is extremely political and what worries me is that the US government has several times through out history used war to unite the country around election time. It's cunning bullshit politics that exploits fear and passion rather than reason to mobilize support and gain victory. I'll be damned if McCain gets in office or if the American people get cajouled into this whole little scheme - afterall the voted for Bush for two terms which suggests that anything can happen. I really hope Americans will see the truth and vote for Obama because this policy can't go on forever and I hope it stops at Obama but we know it definately doesn't stop with McCain (it would be a continuation of the same policy).
    Yeah, you're really, really reaching here. And you could really, really use some formatting, like paragraphs maybe.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
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    "Mod point of view here": I suggest most of you take a break from this thread for a bit before getting it going again. The last few posts of the thread have become people just posting disagreeing opinions back at each other in a "you're stupid for thinking that" kind of way, which does not make for good quality thread.

  4. #64
    Junior Member BetaSwimmer's Avatar
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    Honestly...with the way matters are beginning to evolve I'm thinking...no I am fairly certain at this point that this attack on Georgia is just the start of a whole shit load more stuff to come.

    So we know Putin has basically sabotaged the entire Russia government into his KGB buddies once more. Dimitri is a puppet president for Putin. If you disagree with this you've got some serious issues.

    Now we may have already covered it here in this thread but for the record...

    BBC NEWS | Europe | Day-by-day: Georgia-Russia crisis

    This is the play by play of how the most recent of events have unfolded between Georgia and Russia. Russia is not honoring the ceasefire agreements... Yes I'll give that Georgia made one mistake, in the midst of their civil war with the break away region of South Ossetia, they were supposed to be under their own ceasefire, and attacked OS region during that time. If there were any specific circumstances in which they had to I know not of, but it seems here they screwed up.

    However Russia had already instigated the first step. During the time Russia was sending in 'peace keepers' they were also converting the OS population into legal Russian citizens. SO when Georgia attacked Russia cried out that Georgia was attacking their citizens. Yet despite all this. Russia's primary 'reason' for entering the region was to say that they felt Georgia needed a regime change? (correct me if I'm wrong here) But they continued to claim that Georgia was a corrupt government undergoing genocide against the OS people.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All that aside, here was something else that was interesting. Last night Glenn Beck managed to talk to the Georgian President. In his discussions Saakashvili mentioned that the missiles that Russia dropped down on them were inscribed with the words "This is for America" "This is for NATO" "This is for Bush" They were unable to show it in picture but Saakashvili did notify Bush and others of this.

    Breitbart.tv

    EVEN without that kind of information, I don't think it takes a military genius to figure out that Russia is planning something bigger. Russia may be just flexing their muscles right now. But there is a bigger plan at foot. Russia is taking advantage of the fact that the US no longer has the influence we once had in the world. While I understand the reasons we went into Iraq, and despite faulty intelligence there were still a number of reasons for removing Saddam (Least in the mind of Bush, and yes we could debate this but not right now). None-the-less the actions of Bush to move into Iraq destroyed US's credibility in the world, playing perfectly to Putin.

    US is at this point powerless. We can't physically risk attacking Russia in any way, both in the sense that we have far too stretched out military, and by the fact that the US is already on edge about getting involved in any more violent matters else where in the world. Furthermore, as I see happening now....Putin's got the world questioning whether Georgia is truly innocent in matters, and if Putin may actually have some justification in the matters.

    I don't disagree that Georgia may have had its own less than perfect track record, however Russia's interference into the country's matters goes beyond any reasonable interaction and deliberation.

    But see I don't think Russia's working alone on this situation. I think Russia's using this as a misdirection to other issues. Diverting attention away from the rest of the world. And more specifically I fear that issues in between Iran and Israel will begin to flare up soon once more as the pressure Russia puts on US will diminish our ability to aid Israel against Iran who will feel pushed to their limits and possibly launch the missiles at Iran, (Which is exactly what Iran wants.)

    And on top of that I think coupling that with the Economic/Energy issues And the political crap with the US will truly spell for catastrophe for America...and without America...I wonder if Europe has the guts to stand against Russia, China and the rest of the Communist/Muslim-extremist/anti-democratic world.

    Of course this is worst case scenario and I'm just speculating...but then again...what if I'm right? Or what if it actually turns out worse?

  5. #65
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    It is a shame very few American presidents of the last century see it that about their very own behaviour.
    I wholeheartedly agree. Every POTUS from FDR on has done something impeachable as far as I can tell.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really implying that Republicans put Putin up to this?
    Not at all. Stop watching bullshit news stations. I am implying the republicans have a strong motive to push Georgia to do what it did to South Ossetia which in turn provoked Putin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, Americans just want to win.
    This isn't true based on many polls I've seen. But more importantly, it's not a war that can be won. Vietnam couldn't be won and a 'war on terrorism' definately can't be won. Stop buying the advertisements of the State Department of Propaganda - you may actually learn a thing or two by keeping your mouth shut and listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The primary issue is the economy. The energy price issue is huge.
    The economic recession the US is in is directly linked to the war and the resources it's costing the country to continue the policy over there. So you're missing the "big picture" on that one too.

  7. #67
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    No NOT keep Israel safe, damn it - that's what started all this shit to begin with. If they wanna kill each other, they will - so just let 'em damn it. The only thing that can happen is that we get dragged into a third world war because the damn Americans think it's a great idea to "save the world." Screw it - I say! Grrrr.....

    I mean, okay you can argue - BLAH BLAH BLAH - people need us, and we need to save people. Shit, that's what America said in the 80s when we went into Afghanistan. Well that was cool beans until they realized Americans were "heathen capitalist bastards" and basically declared war on their asses. Yeah, once the soviet threat was over, America was number one on their shitlist.

    When is America going to realize that by invading, helping, interfering, or whatever you wanna call it that only terrible things will ensue!? MAN!

    Sorry, folks, really - but this kind of stuff really gets my goat because NO ONE - NO ONE learns from history. And it just makes me wanna blow chunks of nuclear radioactive waste into windmills, ya know?!??!
    History teaches many lessons, the trick is to determine which lesson applies to the current situation. I seem to remember that liberal democracies followed your advice during the 1930's, with disastrous consequences. Karl Blidt(sp) of Sweden noticed these same parallels. In a way, you have yourselves (and Japan) to blame for our well-intentioned hubris-our global activism and sometimesa overly-optimistic evaluation of our capabilities are largely derived from that infamous period in history. I don't recall ya'll complaing when we air-lifted supplies to East Berlin-back when you guys were a relatively weak country attempting to democratize while threatened by an aggressive and authoritarian state-so why do you object to our current actions on behalf of Georgia?

    Incidentally, try not to mistake blowback (the rise of Al-Queda and the Taliban, which was facilitated but not determined by our actions) with policy failure; the Soviet Union was worse than what came afterwards.

    As for the conspiracy theories...Christ, how many of you guys also believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post



    This isn't true based on many polls I've seen. But more importantly, it's not a war that can be won. Vietnam couldn't be won and a 'war on terrorism' definately can't be won. Stop buying the advertisements of the State Department of Propaganda - you may actually learn a thing or two by keeping your mouth shut and listening.
    This is a joke. The war on terror can very easily be won, and within the course of a few months, if even that long. It's just that no nation wants to be seen as the one that did the necessary to burn the evil ideology from this planet.

    Step 1: Stealth fighters.
    Step 2: WMDs
    Step 3: Erase known nations funding and harboring terrorists.
    Step 4: Let history be your judge.

    If Genghis Khan had command of the U.S. armed forces, terrorism would be a historical curiosity. Too bad no politician these days has his fortitude to do what needs to be done.

    Or does anybody remember the innocent people of the Kingdom of Tangut?
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  9. #69
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    It depresses me when I see pictures of Georgian victims on NPR.

    My take on it? Since I don't trust the U.S. mainstream news media whatsoever, I watch/read news from different sources online and really try to see things on both perspectives. On top of that, I look at the historical relationships that happened/where the natural resources at, in order to get a really general view of what's really going on/why before I make a judgment.

    I feel really sorry for the civilians..

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    It depresses me when I see pictures of Georgian victims on NPR.

    My take on it? Since I don't trust the U.S. mainstream news media whatsoever, I watch/read news from different sources online and really try to see things on both perspectives. On top of that, I look at the historical relationships that happened/where the natural resources at, in order to get a really general view of what's really going on/why before I make a judgment.

    I feel really sorry for the civilians..
    The media is sensational, not informative. That's why I don't watch it.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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