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  1. #171
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    I'm not talking about generic lives. I'm talking about lives of people in the free world (read: Russians, Japanese, American, EU, Israel) and if I had to choose between the death of everyone in the middle east aside from those in Israel, and the death of one person in Germany, I'd write off the former option to save the latter.

    Not all human lives are of equal worth IMO.
    Just quoting this so you won't be able to change it later. I have no comment, it speaks for itself.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Just quoting this so you won't be able to change it later. I have no comment, it speaks for itself.
    Go ahead. I mean what I say. Or are you willing to tell me that the life of a man providing for his wife and 2 kids by holding a blue-collar job in America is worth as little as a Palestinian would be suicide bomber's?

    Think rationally a little bit, not just "we're all human!".

    Think about those things that you don't want to acknowledge, but that you know are probably true.

    Think about those things that you don't want to say for fear of sounding politically incorrect but believe anyway.

    The world will become a better place when people aren't afraid to share their thoughts, even if it means a few people have aversive reactions.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  3. #173
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Members Only View Post
    Oh really?

    Ask somebody who lived in Nicaragua, El Salvador or any of the other South American, puppet governments controlled by the US in the 80's how nice their lives were. They were in as worse a situation (If not worse) as their Soviet controlled counter-parts.

    This was not "Voluntary", the South American people did not volunteer to become victims of US controlled state terrorism. I wonder if the thousands that died volunteered to be murdered under the name of freedom and democracy?

    Not only did thousands die due to terrorism, but thousands more died due to completely amoral US sanctions. These sanctions were eventually lifted in many South American countries when their populaces elected the "correct" candidate; after years of death and destruction I might add. I belive the US Governments official line was "Elect this candidate, and we lift the sanctions, elect this one, and we will we not". Now there is an example of democracy at it's finest, elect our candidate or starve to death.

    The West was no more moral in the handling of it's satellite states than the Soviet Union was. Just because something is filtered through the slogan of "Freedom and Democracy" does not make it so. Democracy is just a word when the people are starving.
    Yes. A valid point.
    No objection.

    Democracy is a word for the starving people.
    Defection is a one way street.

  4. #174
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Nah. It's possible to some extent, but to wipe out the entire population you need more than car bombs.
    Do I really need to writte down entire idea?

    You use car bombs to destoy some critical buildings and water supply lines or to assassinate some local lords. By doing that you are causing crisis and when that happens it is enough that 10% of population stay without food and water. Than that 10% will start making problems because they are dying and they will cause more problems plus clans will be at war because they will think the other side started the conflict with car bomb assaissinations.
    Once the balance is lost the native population will kill each other just to get the most basic resources for their family.
    Since you are there to provide order it should not be too ilogical if your troops shoot some civilians in the process
    By doing this you can erase huge part of population.


    Also if you give few gifts to some of the countries who could have proplem with this. Gifts like Taiwan, few countries that were part of Soviet union , right to do what ever they want to their population , right to annex some of their ex colonies. In that case I really don't see the problem.




    It would probably be doable to confuse matters so much they didn't show up on TV in any coherent way. It would still be a huge gamble for any US administration though (unless the country turned away from democracy). A few leaks, some email sent to the wrong people, and it could explode in the news. That's why I don't believe most conspiracy theories. You have to be omniscient or extremely lucky to get away with a conspiracy that includes more than a few people.
    But isn't the point of TV to make people paranoid about conspiracy theories so that they don't see the obvious.
    In this case US would only be guilty for attacking Iraq but the entire population died in civil war. After all that is exactly what you will get if you turn your TV on.



    Yes. But I'm skeptical of the worst case scenarios, and they would hit the US hard as well, so I tried to think of a scenario that could wipe out Iraq and not seriously hit the US as well, and found none. And I was not very serious.
    Since when US government thinks about well-being of its citizen ?
    After all, heat strikes are very good problem solvers if your main problem is too much old population.


    I know. I try my best, but my bluff is always called. I am a fraud, not an evil genious.
    Don't worry about it you have just found someone who can teach you and he is willing to teach you.


    You should see other peoples faces when I start to talk like this.

  5. #175
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Go ahead. I mean what I say. Or are you willing to tell me that the life of a man providing for his wife and 2 kids by holding a blue-collar job in America is worth as little as a Palestinian would be suicide bomber's?

    Think rationally a little bit, not just "we're all human!".

    Think about those things that you don't want to acknowledge, but that you know are probably true.

    Think about those things that you don't want to say for fear of sounding politically incorrect but believe anyway.

    The world will become a better place when people aren't afraid to share their thoughts, even if it means a few people have aversive reactions.
    Ok, if you think it'll make the world a better place, I'll give you my politically incorrect opinions.
    Yes, I think the life of a man providing for his wife and 2 kids by holding a blue-collar job in America is worth more than a Palestinian would be suicide bomber's.

    And a Palestinian farmer providing for his wife and 5 kids is worth more than an American who beats his wife and kids and drinks a lot.

    And a Norwegian is worth more than any of those no matter what he does or doesn't. Same with most Europeans, who're all worth far more than Americans. Australians too. But Americans are worth a lot more than Russians or Chinese. Jews, Romani, Africans, Indians... hm... too many categories I realize. I should probably create charts instead. Easier to get all the options in there. Criminal/not criminal, sexual orientation, mixed descent etc.

    The problem with letting myself hold these opinions is that they're a jumble of rational and irrational subjective likes and fears. They're the little racist inside of me. Basing any political or military judgment on them would both be highly immoral and utterly stupid. Just giving the little tyrant inside a voice makes me feel both.

    And through history it's rarely been a good thing to give that tyrant a voice. It let slavery continue. Segregation. Genocide in Armenia, Rwanda, Germany, Bosnia and so on.

    I'm not a fan of political correctness. PC is just a tool designed to control the masses. But neither am I a fan of letting subjective values get a final say. They shouldn't be trusted. And more importantly: Other people's subjective opinions can't be. So I try my best to be objective and encourage others to be as well, because if they stop only luck and their jumble of rational and irrational fears and likes decides whether or not they're my friend or my killer.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  6. #176
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Do I really need to writte down entire idea?

    You use car bombs to destoy some critical buildings and water supply lines or to assassinate some local lords. By doing that you are causing crisis and when that happens it is enough that 10% of population stay without food and water. Than that 10% will start making problems because they are dying and they will cause more problems plus clans will be at war because they will think the other side started the conflict with car bomb assaissinations.
    Once the balance is lost the native population will kill each other just to get the most basic resources for their family.
    Since you are there to provide order it should not be too ilogical if your troops shoot some civilians in the process
    By doing this you can erase huge part of population.


    Also if you give few gifts to some of the countries who could have proplem with this. Gifts like Taiwan, few countries that were part of Soviet union , right to do what ever they want to their population , right to annex some of their ex colonies. In that case I really don't see the problem.






    But isn't the point of TV to make people paranoid about conspiracy theories so that they don't see the obvious.
    In this case US would only be guilty for attacking Iraq but the entire population died in civil war. After all that is exactly what you will get if you turn your TV on.





    Since when US government thinks about well-being of its citizen ?
    After all, heat strikes are very good problem solvers if your main problem is too much old population.



    Don't worry about it you have just found someone who can teach you and he is willing to teach you.


    You should see other peoples faces when I start to talk like this.



    I see I have a lot to learn.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  7. #177
    Senior Member Members Only's Avatar
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    Politics - Perception.

    I agree with Carebear.
    It's just a ride

  8. #178
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I'm a bit surprized by the lack of reaction here, in this subforum. Do people realize we're close to a world war?

    We're very close to it, because what Russia has done will NEVER be accepted by the western democracies. The risk is far too great, and the Rubicon has already been crossed. So this conflict can only degenerate, and escalate.

    I've read lot of propaganda here, especially from werewolfen1984, so I think it's time to make people understand here what this conflict is about, with the help of FACTS and NUMBERS (That's the way NT do, by the way).

    ---

    What is South Ossetia?

    It is a poor, rural and mountainous micro-micro region. Before the Russian invasion of 1993, it had approximately 90.000 inhabitants (a third were Georgians, the rest Ossetians). After the ethnic cleansing, only barely 65.000 inhabitants remained, only those faithful to the Russian authorities.

    60.000 inhabitants is less than the principality of Andorra, or twice the Liechtenstein. It is the size of Long Island, 5400 times smaller than Russia.

    It is nothing, or almost nothing. It's only a pretext Russia used to destabilize the sovereign state of Georgia. There's nothing strategic or valuable in South Ossetia, this conflict is mainly political. Forget about the oil, the gas, the oleoduc and all that crap. Russia is here only because it wants to avenge the loss of its empire. That is called ultra-nationalism, or fascism if you prefer.

    The declaration of independence of south Ossetia is quite absurd, it is a joke. If you want a comparison, imagine that after a local riot, all the non-hispanic inhabitants are expelled from a remote suburb of El Paso (TX). And then shortly after, this suburb would declare its independence, and press Mexico to intervene? How do you think the US would react? Frankly?

    What is Abkhazia?

    Abkhazia is a province of Georgia, and has always been for millennias. Despite what its current name suggests, it was mostly populated by Georgians (Mingrelians) -Abkhazians being a minority-, as far as 2500 years ago. In 1989, 48% of the 500.000 inhabitants were ethnic Georgians (the largest group).
    In 1993, Russia invaded and the Georgian families were expelled by force. Their homes were given to people who were faithful to russian interests, or better, to russian families coming from the north. Today, there's only barely 220.000 people left in Abkhazia, and Russian has become the main language. This is a perfect example of ethnic cleansing.

    Today, the russian armed forces have done the same with the territory they now control after their invasion of Georgia (a third of the country). They cleanse the Georgians. Since only two weeks, almost 150.000 Georgian civilians had to flee because of the russian tanks, and yet, Putin continues to say Georgia is the aggressor, and that the russian forces are "soldiers of peace"!
    I'll let your brains try to figure out what is really going on.

    Again, FACTS and NUMBERS. Don't be fooled by propaganda, this conflict is quite unilateral, and totally unbalanced. Do you really think that such a large scale invasion, involving more than 350.000 soldiers, 500 planes and 3000 tanks, could be improvised by Russia during the last two weeks? Have you any idea how much logistics it requires? It MUST have been meticulously prepared.
    On the other hand, Georgia's army had only barely 37.000 men avalaible, and 9 planes!

    What is Georgia?

    Georgia is currently the ONLY western style liberal democracy in the Caucasus area. It has 4.600.000 inhabitants (71 times South Ossetia!), and is roughly twice the size of Belgium.

    Since the coming of democracy (during a "soft revolution", with no casualities at all), the current growth of the economy is about 11% per year, and the country had been remarkably stable since, both politically and socially, despite the 1993 trauma. The infrastructure and the average level of education are also very good. The corruption had been divided by 8, the laws are now based on a social-liberal constitution, with a strict separation of powers. The death penalty has been abolished, the elections are free, and according to the NGO "Reporters without borders", the freedom of the medias is similar to most eastern states of the EU: that means quite good (but not perfect), and the situation is improving within each new year (66th out of 169th countries, the US being the 48th). Russia, on the other hand, is far, far, far away from this (144th out of 169th countries, amongst the dreadest dictatorships in the world).

    Georgians want to be part of the western world, they have an intense desire to be europeans. According to polls, 77% want to be part of the NATO, and 72% part of the EU. Just like Poland or the baltic states, they have the potential to become a rich european country, a valued member of the EU. And that's what Russia fears.

    We share the same values, they believe in us! Our governments simply cannot abandon them, and let their territory be plundered and devastated by a foreign invader. The conflict looked confused during two or three days, but now, our leaders are beginning to react and understand what is really going on, hence their tougher stance towards Russia.
    Because else, it would be like the coup in Prague in 1968, or like Budapest in 1956.

    Abandoning Georgia would be a terrible, terrible mistake, and a shame we cannot allow us to endure. It could cause an incredible prejudice against the western world. We would show to the world that the democracies aren't ready to defend their shared values, and that we only are a bunch of hypocrits, that we are weaks. The political situation would then deteriorate everywhere on the planet.

    And Russia would feel free to invade Ukraine, or even worst, the baltic states (since they all share a significant russian minority).

    Modern Russia is a nationalist dictatorship, armed to the teeth.

    We should not forget this. We should not forget who is Putin. His special forces executed and deported dozens of journalists and dissidents, and he even dared to poison the elected president of a foreign country, Ukraine (Viktor Yutchenko), in his attempt to destabilize it and prevent democracy to succeed here. He is also responsible for the death of hundred of thousands Chechens. Grozny, a town of more than 200.000 inhabitants, has been razed to 80%, like Warsaw during WWII.

    Now that they are invading a sovereign state recognized by the UN, worst: a western democracy, and they behave again like barbarians, it is time to say NO before it's too late.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 08-28-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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  9. #179
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    At the moment Europe and Russia are too codependent to go to war. We need a bigger issue. Like the Polish Missiles or Ukraine's port that the Russian's use for a larger confrontation. Granted if the above happens, we will look back to Georgia possibly as the reason.

  10. #180
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    At the moment Europe and Russia are too codependent to go to war. We need a bigger issue. Like the Polish Missiles or Ukraine's port that the Russian's use for a larger confrontation. Granted if the above happens, we will look back to Georgia possibly as the reason.
    That would be too late, and the current conflict would have escalated long before.

    Attentism is never a solution.

    This is a MAJOR crisis, and again, I'm a bit surprised that the average american citizen is not understanding it, and perceive this as something vague, very far away, or through the ordinary ideological biases (whether conservative or liberal).

    A potential EU and OTAN member, a western democracy is currently in a state of war with Russia, and our governments will have no options but to support Georgia. In fact, they can't do otherwise. And since Russia will not withdraw its troops (it's a matter of political prestige)... well...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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