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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Court ordered sterilisation in the UK

    BBC News - Mother of six 'can be sterilised' - court ruling

    Views on this one? I'm not going to post right away, would like to get everyone elses opinions and see what direction that takes things before I post mine and it likely descends quickly in reasons Lark is some kinda nazi

  2. #2
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    In a case like this, she doesn't have the mental capacity to understand any of it, including being sterilized. I agree with the court's decision.
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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    yeah and especially since another birth is more than likely gonna lead to her death and the child's death I agree. and of course it's not eugenics she already has 6 offspring a little to late for that.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #4
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yeah and especially since another birth is more than likely gonna lead to her death and the child's death I agree. and of course it's not eugenics she already has 6 offspring a little to late for that.
    Hmm, interesting speculation here.

    If this thread is correct, she is of diminished mental capacity.
    And yet she's had *six* offspring.

    Point 1:

    Is there room for an "inverse" Darwin award? (People who have reproduced far more than an a priori consideration of their fitness would have led you to suppose them capable of?)

    Point 2:

    One might naiively think that this is evidence contrary to Darwinism.
    But it isn't, since social safety nets in Western society are not an example of "nature red in tooth and claw" but rather "red" only in a political sense.

    Point 3a and 3b:



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  5. #5
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Hmm, interesting speculation here.

    If this thread is correct, she is of diminished mental capacity.
    And yet she's had *six* offspring.

    Point 1:

    Is there room for an "inverse" Darwin award? (People who have reproduced far more than an a priori consideration of their fitness would have led you to suppose them capable of?)

    Point 2:

    One might naiively think that this is evidence contrary to Darwinism.
    But it isn't, since social safety nets in Western society are not an example of "nature red in tooth and claw" but rather "red" only in a political sense.

    Point 3a and 3b:



    no speculation it's in the article:

    It said there were considerable concerns about the woman's safety.

    Doctors said the wall of her uterus was "tissue-paper thin" and likely to rupture in childbirth, leading to almost certain death of the infant.

    Mr Cobb insisted: "Those who lack capacity have the same human rights as everyone else.

    "This case is not about eugenics, this outcome has been driven by the bleak yet undisputed evidence that a further pregnancy would be a significantly life-threatening event."
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  6. #6
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Tablet from health food shop hmm? I suppose if the health risks are highly detrimental and her mental capacity is... uh.. an iq of 70 (however they measured it), go ahead with it.

  7. #7
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Hmm, interesting speculation here.

    If this thread is correct, she is of diminished mental capacity.
    And yet she's had *six* offspring.

    Point 1:

    Is there room for an "inverse" Darwin award? (People who have reproduced far more than an a priori consideration of their fitness would have led you to suppose them capable of?)

    Point 2:

    One might naiively think that this is evidence contrary to Darwinism.
    But it isn't, since social safety nets in Western society are not an example of "nature red in tooth and claw" but rather "red" only in a political sense.

    Point 3a and 3b:



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  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I would suggest that any "red in tooth and claw" characterisation of nature is a myth, darwin, darwinism and even social darwinism are all seriously misunderstood.

    Its the same as the idea that the worst sorts of attachment disorder dictated behaviours are bafflingly maladaptive to have been reproduced one generation after another. Surely it can only be a consequence of commie welfare statism right?

    Nope, the worst sorts of dysfunctional behaviour resulting from disordered attachments are highly, highly adaptive for the purposes, very, very, very narrow purposes, of passing on the genes.

    The recklessness, risk taking, aggressiveness, avoidance of commitments, diminshed rest, relaxation and arousal cycle (this is in a strict response to external stimuli context also) are all adaptive, particularly in adverse and hostile circumstances, the unconscious expectation of the same having been patterned on the brain from the preverbal stages of life.

    I would say this same sort of thing is happening in cases such as this one in which the person in question has highly diminished cognitive capacities.

    Now I really dont believe that benefits, social services and any of the other, modest, all too modest, hall marks of civilisation have any influence on this either way. It doesnt make it more or less likely.

    Equally I dont believe their abscence or withdrawal, the return to the posited and mythic, nature "red in tooth and claw" or rather "nasty, brutish and short", would have any influence either.

    Losing for a lot of people does not imply a lesson. By losing I mean any and all suffering and misery, including from consequences natural and logical, and avoidable suffering is definitely not recognised or comprehended as such. Most decisions being affect and emotion driven are rationalised afterwards rather than reasoned and choosen in the first instance, even were cognitive disability or attachment disorders arent prejudicing matters further.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I actually would favour sterilisation in a much broader application, I know I've said about this before and usually its in relation to things like the project which makes single payments to addicts or alcoholics when they have had a child once or something like that.

    Sometimes I think it should be targetted, not simply to the cognitively challenged, but to those of populations suffering from attachment disorders or other disorders which are liable to leave them with little or no impulse control or abilities to defer gratification or plan in advance.

    Then other times I think it should be something which is offered periodically to the whole population, unless they opt out of it, like how I think organ donation should be handled, not a voluntary opt in but a voluntary opt out instead.

    I also think that particular age groups, if it could be offered in some manner that the majority rather than a minority of at risk individuals would avail of it, should be given chemical contraception.

    Those are all views which I know are anathema to the RCC and if there's anti-vaxers and a growing anti-medicine mindset afoot that sort of thing is never, ever going to catch on.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Then other times I think it should be something which is offered periodically to the whole population, unless they opt out of it, like how I think organ donation should be handled, not a voluntary opt in but a voluntary opt out instead.

    I also think that particular age groups, if it could be offered in some manner that the majority rather than a minority of at risk individuals would avail of it, should be given chemical contraception.

    Those are all views which I know are anathema to the RCC and if there's anti-vaxers and a growing anti-medicine mindset afoot that sort of thing is never, ever going to catch on.
    Yeah, I've had similar thoughts. Sometimes I'll see a parent and their kid(s), or meet someone who was obviously fucked up by their parents, and I'll think Oi, people should really need licenses to be parents! And honestly, unless we figure out how to colonize other planets rather soon, we're going to have to start regulating the population -- or use increasingly flimsy excuses to go to war just to keep the population down.

    But you're right; can you imagine the rage and sheer paranoia that would erupt if a politician dared to air any such idea? "You can take my God-given right imperative to go forth and multiply from my cold, dead hands!" "It's a plot to sterilize my people so that the blacks/whites/yellows/reds/browns can take over!" "It's a communist plot to destroy democracy!" Although a Catholic like yourself favoring such ideas does give me hope.

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