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  1. #11
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Sorry @prplchknz, I was unclear.

    The only 'speculation' I meant was mine: about the room for the *inverse* Darwin award; and the artificial enlargement of the idiot ratio in modern industrial populations.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #12
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    reproduction is not a right, it's a privilege

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Yeah, I've had similar thoughts. Sometimes I'll see a parent and their kid(s), or meet someone who was obviously fucked up by their parents, and I'll think Oi, people should really need licenses to be parents! And honestly, unless we figure out how to colonize other planets rather soon, we're going to have to start regulating the population -- or use increasingly flimsy excuses to go to war just to keep the population down.

    But you're right; can you imagine the rage and sheer paranoia that would erupt if a politician dared to air any such idea? "You can take my God-given right imperative to go forth and multiply from my cold, dead hands!" "It's a plot to sterilize my people so that the blacks/whites/yellows/reds/browns can take over!" "It's a communist plot to destroy democracy!" Although a Catholic like yourself favoring such ideas does give me hope.
    I'm also a hardline socialist as well as an RC.

    Although I dont favour those things for the same reasons as you, I dont believe there is a problem with population at all and I dont see a need for regulation of the population in the same way you do.

    Most of the classic malthusian ideas, called so for Thomas Malthus who wrote the essay on the principle of population which has the first hue and cry and fears about "too many poor" articulated in it, is that its numbers which matters. That's totally bogus. Increases in the populations of most people has a neglible impact upon resource consumption because not everyone consumes the same. In the first world or most wealthy parts of the world individuals rich and poor consume about eighty percent more than anyone else, people in subsaharan africa consume very little and leave virtually nothing in the way of a "foot print" to their ever having been there even.

    What is in question is distribution and consumption which most economists dont want to deal with.

    There are already subtle ways in which eugenics already works in class divided societies, human capital or social capital, in the form of culture and knowledge and skills, have life limiting consequences for a lot of people. The diets of rich and poor, even in affluent countries experiencing days of plenty differ so much. Diabetes, smoking related illnesses, alcohol related illness, trauma, stress, mental illness, they all have massive concentrations in some populations and operate to ensure a short life span.

    Although like I say, this results in strange psychological adaptations, which result in promiscuity and reproduction at early stages in life, which some communities in which sort of cuckcoo life styles prevail, ie people will have children but they wont bring them up, they leave that to the state, family, anyone else, sometimes that may not necessarily mean the child being taken into someone elses care, just living a miserable existence in the family home with others "looking in".

    It is not a numbers game, that's just stupid, and there are likely to be other resistance to the idea of planning the population than traditional religious or anti-medical or scientific convictions.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhodses View Post
    reproduction is not a right, it's a privilege
    A lot of people who are childless certainly feel that way, investing in really expensive medical interventions to ensure that they can conceive.

    I'm always unsure about a blanket generalisation or idea that reproduction could be licensed or something but the fitness of people to parent or reproduce is something which hasnt been considered much, historically, because it caused misery only to the immediate people involved, there was less of a social conscience or social consciousness.

  5. #15
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I actually would favour sterilisation in a much broader application, I know I've said about this before and usually its in relation to things like the project which makes single payments to addicts or alcoholics when they have had a child once or something like that.

    Sometimes I think it should be targetted, not simply to the cognitively challenged, but to those of populations suffering from attachment disorders or other disorders which are liable to leave them with little or no impulse control or abilities to defer gratification or plan in advance.

    Then other times I think it should be something which is offered periodically to the whole population, unless they opt out of it, like how I think organ donation should be handled, not a voluntary opt in but a voluntary opt out instead.

    I also think that particular age groups, if it could be offered in some manner that the majority rather than a minority of at risk individuals would avail of it, should be given chemical contraception.

    Those are all views which I know are anathema to the RCC and if there's anti-vaxers and a growing anti-medicine mindset afoot that sort of thing is never, ever going to catch on.
    Regardless of uyour personal intentions, that sort of thing is very dangerous. It tends to end up being hijacked by people who want to use it for their own purposes. Even worse, people often assume that their purposes are the ideas intention. Consequently they abuse their new found priviledges without even realising they are doing so.

    Have you ever heard of the eurogenics laws they had in the USA some decades ago? They allowed nedical perfessionals to sterilise unwilling people if two of them could agree they were "degenerate". Thousands of people were neutered under the legislation. You might not be surprised to learn the majority of them were members of ethnic minorities. I don't know what the intentions were of the people passing the law, but it soon turned into a vehicle for racism and social bigotry. I think any similar attempts would always be in deadly danger of going the same way.

    It's this sort of thing that leads me to think humans are the exact opposite of bees, because bees are individually stupid but collectively smart, were as humans...
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Regardless of uyour personal intentions, that sort of thing is very dangerous. It tends to end up being hijacked by people who want to use it for their own purposes. Even worse, people often assume that their purposes are the ideas intention. Consequently they abuse their new found priviledges without even realising they are doing so.

    Have you ever heard of the eurogenics laws they had in the USA some decades ago? They allowed nedical perfessionals to sterilise unwilling people if two of them could agree they were "degenerate". Thousands of people were neutered under the legislation. You might not be surprised to learn the majority of them were members of ethnic minorities. I don't know what the intentions were of the people passing the law, but it soon turned into a vehicle for racism and social bigotry. I think any similar attempts would always be in deadly danger of going the same way.

    It's this sort of thing that leads me to think humans are the exact opposite of bees, because bees are individually stupid but collectively smart, were as humans...
    Anything, anything at all, can be hijacked as you say.

    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

    Also why does the past only serve as a guide to the future in matters judged undesirable or failed?

  7. #17
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I think anyone who supports sterelization for whole groups of people should be sterelized we don't need that kind of racism polluting the gene pool further.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #18
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Regardless of uyour personal intentions, that sort of thing is very dangerous. It tends to end up being hijacked by people who want to use it for their own purposes. Even worse, people often assume that their purposes are the ideas intention. Consequently they abuse their new found priviledges without even realising they are doing so.

    Have you ever heard of the eurogenics laws they had in the USA some decades ago? They allowed nedical perfessionals to sterilise unwilling people if two of them could agree they were "degenerate". Thousands of people were neutered under the legislation. You might not be surprised to learn the majority of them were members of ethnic minorities. I don't know what the intentions were of the people passing the law, but it soon turned into a vehicle for racism and social bigotry. I think any similar attempts would always be in deadly danger of going the same way.
    It doesn't need to be coerced - it could be incentivised. Govt can offer cash to certain "qualified" individuals to undergo voluntarily sterilization.

    It's this sort of thing that leads me to think humans are the exact opposite of bees, because bees are individually stupid but collectively smart, were as humans...
    Men in Black aside, this is a baseless assumption. An idiot can be an idiot all by himself, he doesn't need another idiot to be stupid.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  9. #19
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    Eugenics never turns out well. It is among many ideas that may have a noble intent, but they just can't work in practice.

    Where do you draw the line about who should and shouldn't be sterilised? Like, how "serious" does a medical condition, or a mental disorder, have to be to warrant sterilisation? And who is going will have the responsibility of judging this? As millions of people would potentially be affected there just isn't the time to make decisions on a case by case basis, so there have to be rules, and what I fear is the bar being lowered over time.

    I have mentioned this before, but I wish we had more enlightened world leaders. People who would get together and commit to writing up some regulations around genetic engineering, artificial intelligence, surveillance and the like. This will become harder and harder to do in the future.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    It doesn't need to be coerced - it could be incentivised. Govt can offer cash to certain "qualified" individuals to undergo voluntarily sterilization.



    Men in Black aside, this is a baseless assumption. An idiot can be an idiot all by himself, he doesn't need another idiot to be stupid.
    I dont believe in either the wisdom of crowds or brilliant individuals, I think both are exaggerated and it would do better if everyone realised their choices were half chance.

    I do think incentivising is a better idea than coercion, the savings could be ten times what the initial outlay would be in the expense of paying people off and the procedures themselves too.

    I also think it should be broadcast to people doing things such as immigrating to the UK while pregnant in order to exploit the NHS maternity wards that if they keep doing so they will be sterilised following their next procedure.

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