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  1. #81
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    I find it really difficult to believe their perspectives due to their references to how well Mother Nature designed our immune systems and our bodies. I believe in evolution, and a constant biological imperative to find more advantages to survive in a world with competition for resources and the drive to produce healthy offspring. Viruses are meant to mutate and evolve too, that is how they survive. This is the challenge for our species because we make fantastic hosts.

    The 108 deaths from vaccines in the last decade in North America which is continuously quoted in anti-vax materials is a number taken from a website where people self-report their vaccination side-effects. This number has not been qualified or confirmed by the CDC. VAERS, the site referenced as the source of this fatality "stat" is not moderated for content. One person has even reported that a vaccine turned him into the Hulk. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index The CDC has confirmed that the instances of extreme reactions to vaccines are a result of underlying health complications that should have exempted that person from receiving the vaccine in the first place.

    I have had a reaction to almost every vaccine I've ever had. I know that for two days following a vaccine, I'm probably going to feel like junk and have a low-grade fever. I was a premature baby, and a very, very sick child. I couldn't get my vaccines caught up until I was about 8 because my health was so poor, so I relied on the immunity of my classmates and community members to slow down/prevent the spread of dangerous illnesses. I remember catching measles from a pre-school classmate (who was not vaccinated) because it was so painful and scary. If it weren't for the medical staff at the hospital I had to stay in throughout the illness, and the medicines developed by the big-bad pharmaceutical companies, I might have come out with serious impairment. I still have the scars

    I can even agree with the anti-vax perspective on wanting more information and details about the results of vaccines. We should be questioning science so we can make an informed decision about weighing benefits and risks. But should we be segregating people who choose not to be vaccinated outside of significant health complications from vaccines? In North America, should we be viewing legislature mandating vaccination (for those who can safely handle it, obviously) as a compromise for living in a democratic society?

    Anti-vax supporters will ask what the point would be to separate vaccinated from unvaccinated if the vaccines are so effective. (Other than the fact that diseases that ravaged our great-grandparents and grandparents are no longer an every-day worry, but I digress) Vaccines are never 100% perfect and effective on all people. On some people, they will result in the perfect anti-bodies being produced and that person can be continually exposed to the live virus and never be infected. On others, the vaccine will be partially to mostly effective, meaning that if they are exposed to the live virus, they will have a milder experience and generally have a much higher rate of full recovery in comparison to if they had never been vaccinated. By keeping the majority of people in one of these two groups, a live virus exposure can be contained. If one partial-effectiveness person becomes ill, and they are surrounded by perfect-effectiveness people, the virus cannot spread as efficiently as if the rest of their social group had not been vaccinated. This has the greatest benefit for people in society with junk immune systems/health complications who cannot be vaccinated. This is how we can protect them.

    I will continue to weigh the benefits and risks of vaccinations for the rest of my life. I am willing to deal with my own uncomfortable adverse reactions if it means I am protecting the people around me. Also, Mother Nature kind of botched up the design of my immune system so I'll use all the help I can get.

  2. #82
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    @Gamine

    I agree that one must be informed. I personally researched all the vaccines given, the ages they were recommended, our living demographics, and decided that for my children it was best to delay all vaccines until 2-3 years of age (active toddling), and THEN only get those that seemed life threatening, or could result in a high chance of permanent injury. What resulted was giving my children Diptheria/tetanus and polio. The others just weren't sufficiently warranted in my family. My children therefore got 3 instead of 5 DT shots (because if you delay, they don't need as many) and a couple polio injections. That is a lot better on their immune system than the regimen suggested by the government:


    Point is, that science and big pharma don't want to limit the amount of vaccines they can make because it makes them money. Just because you can give a shot to prohibit an illness does not mean you should. Serious damage is probably being done to our childrens' immune systems because of all that they are injected with. Conscientious parents are asking, "Are all those shots really necessary in my baby?" for good reason!

    I think adults or even teenagers can choose for themselves, but when you are making decisions for your baby and child about vaccinations, the sad fact is that the government does not just have our childrens' well-being in mind. They are beholden to lobbyists and those with an agenda (big pharma) to see as many vaccines given as possible.

    Preemies really need breastmilk. We know that breastmilk goes a long way to helping a child's immune system function adequately. Vaccines could also have more of a place in the immunocompromised, for sure.


    Let's just be smart about this, people. Just because government says it is so, does not mean it is.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    The people who haven't been vaccinated will want to segregate themselves to avoid catching vaccine-induced measles from people who have just been vaccinated and now have come down with the measles and are contagious as a result of getting vaccinated.

  4. #84
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mychemicalkilljoy View Post
    NO. Segregation is the most stupid idea EVER. People should be together- not apart. It sickens me to see people isolated from one another just because they are different. That's bulls**t. You know what's even more messed up? It's the vaccine companies that are in it for money. That is so sick and twisted. I am appalled that people would ever do such a thing. Their whole purpose of the vaccines is to help others--not engage in selfish indulgences like bathing in money while you are altering the health of others. It's fine to have money, but make it in a healthy way. Why would people be so ignorant as to put something in their body that could harm them? The vaccine companies are evil and they only want to destroy everyone, but then again--the deaths control the population. I do not want to cause conflict and an argument. Please don't fight against one another.
    I addressed it before, but I am going to do so again. I understand that you're young, but that doesn't give you a free pass.

    This is nothing more than idealistic bullshit that can never be enacted in the real world. This isn't segregation like you're thinking of. This is more akin to a form of quarantine, which is used and enforced when serious medical outbreaks occurs. It's a necessity. Your notion that vaccines aren't actually helpful is troublingly misinformed. Pharmaceutical companies do have questionable behaviors when it comes to some medication and the marketing related to it, that I will acknowledge. When it comes to vaccines though, that is not the case. If vaccines are not effective as they are intended to be, there would be (depending on the disease of course) regional and world wide consequences. There's no profit to be made off reducing their efficacy. Vaccines are additionally one the most scrupulously regulated, studied, and monintered medical tools there is. If anything starts to go amiss, it is detected, and steps are taken very quickly to fix the problem.

    Also, as I have said before: vaccines are not harmful. Period. There is no evidence to support this. You might not want to cause conflict, but when you make rediculous unfounded claims like this, you do cause it.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I addressed it before, but I am going to do so again. I understand that you're young, but that doesn't give you a free pass.

    This is nothing more than idealistic bullshit that can never be enacted in the real world. This isn't segregation like you're thinking of. This is more akin to a form of quarantine, which is used and enforced when serious medical outbreaks occurs. It's a necessity. Your notion that vaccines aren't actually helpful is troublingly misinformed. Pharmaceutical companies do have questionable behaviors when it comes to some medication and the marketing related to it, that I will acknowledge. When it comes to vaccines though, that is not the case. If vaccines are not effective as they are intended to be, there would be (depending on the disease of course) regional and world wide consequences. There's no profit to be made off reducing their efficacy. Vaccines are additionally one the most scrupulously regulated, studied, and monintered medical tools there is. If anything starts to go amiss, it is detected, and steps are taken very quickly to fix the problem.

    Also, as I have said before: vaccines are not harmful. Period. There is no evidence to support this. You might not want to cause conflict, but when you make rediculous unfounded claims like this, you do cause it.
    Actually, you made a very good point. I kinda generalized and exaggerated... Eh. Then again, I guess quarintine is necessary only in dire circumstances, so I partially agree. I actually respect you more now because you don't treat me like I'm an infant or something like that. Sympathy disgusts me. I think you could be an entj..
    You seem way more thinkerish to me
    "...Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
    I doubted if I should ever come back.
    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."
    -The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

  6. #86
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mychemicalkilljoy View Post
    Actually, you made a very good point. I kinda generalized and exaggerated... Eh. Then again, I guess quarintine is necessary only in dire circumstances, so I partially agree. I actually respect you more now because you don't treat me like I'm an infant or something like that. Sympathy disgusts me. I think you could be an entj..
    You seem way more thinkerish to me
    You would not be the first to mistake me as a Te dom. Just because I am harsh/blunt doesn't mean I am not Fe. It's a common stereotype to paint Fe as all fuzzy and warm, and that is not the case. The way I make decisions is not a purely logical process, is heavily influenced by my environment (people and objects), and I make collective decisions in a way that usually makes Te cringe since it's not always objective.

    The reason I brought up quarantine is because it's a loose parallel to the idea proposed here; segregation for the sake of medical necessity. In this case though it would be done in a preemptive manner. It's not done with malintent, to create some sort of "us vs. them" scheme, or demean people. The reason that is coming up, and the anger attached to it, is because the anti-vaxers are seen as willfully causing harm to others, and in some cases are rightfully so seen as lesser or below common individuals who are seeking to make the most informed and logical health decisions they can make. While some might be driven by an urge to put these people "in their place" by seeking segregation, but that is not their primary drive.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    You would not be the first to mistake me as a Te dom. Just because I am harsh/blunt doesn't mean I am not Fe. It's a common stereotype to paint Fe as all fuzzy and warm, and that is not the case. The way I make decisions is not a purely logical process, is heavily influenced by my environment (people and objects), and I make collective decisions in a way that usually makes Te cringe since it's not always objective.


    The reason I brought up quarantine is because it's a loose parallel to the idea proposed here; segregation for the sake of medical necessity. In this case though it would be done in a preemptive manner. It's not done with malintent, to create some sort of "us vs. them" scheme, or demean people. The reason that is coming up, and the anger attached to it, is because the anti-vaxers are seen as willfully causing harm to others, and in some cases are rightfully so seen as lesser or below common individuals who are seeking to make the most informed and logical health decisions they can make. While some might be driven by an urge to put these people "in their place" by seeking segregation, but that is not their primary drive.
    Actually that makes a lot of sense. As for me I guess I'm an INFP but not sure
    "...Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
    I doubted if I should ever come back.
    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."
    -The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

  8. #88
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mychemicalkilljoy View Post
    Actually, you made a very good point. I kinda generalized and exaggerated... Eh. Then again, I guess quarintine is necessary only in dire circumstances, so I partially agree. I actually respect you more now because you don't treat me like I'm an infant or something like that. Sympathy disgusts me. I think you could be an entj..
    You seem way more thinkerish to me
    Capitalism means all those people working in the pharmaceutical company have families and children of their own that they need to feed. Should a company not receive fair compensation for the work that they do just because it's in the field of medicine?

    I'll be the first person in the room to dry gag watching any promotional videos from Merck, but I know that the people working there deserve to be paid for their work, even if I'm not a huge fan of their managerial practices.

    There are so many more ways we could be fighting with a monopoly in the health care field. Such as encouraging our government representative to support legislature that would change regulations on patents for medicines and intellectual property. That alone would even the playing field, and allow other companies to give these large corporations some real competition. Competition usually results in changes to corporate social responsibility, which is viewed as the next great competitive advantage in the western market.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    Capitalism means all those people working in the pharmaceutical company have families and children of their own that they need to feed. Should a company not receive fair compensation for the work that they do just because it's in the field of medicine?

    I'll be the first person in the room to dry gag watching any promotional videos from Merck, but I know that the people working there deserve to be paid for their work, even if I'm not a huge fan of their managerial practices.

    There are so many more ways we could be fighting with a monopoly in the health care field. Such as encouraging our government representative to support legislature that would change regulations on patents for medicines and intellectual property. That alone would even the playing field, and allow other companies to give these large corporations some real competition. Competition usually results in changes to corporate social responsibility, which is viewed as the next great competitive advantage in the western market.
    Yeah. I agree on the part that everyone should be paid for what they do, no matter what, so we can create an unbiased world. I personally believe in Capitalism and everyone should earn what they get. I mean, I have empathy for the people who are in dire situations and don't have the ability to earn money (if it's something they cannot control), and I want to help those people get back on their feet. However, those who have the ability to go out and get a job, I have no sympathy (maybe empathy) for them. I don't want to be mistaken as "mean" or "cruel." I'm just saying that everyone should earn what they get.
    "...Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
    I doubted if I should ever come back.
    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."
    -The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Makes me wonder about some causes of asthma, diabetes, eczema, and ASD, among other things...
    Its not vacination, I wasnt vacinated and I developed diabetes.

    I KNOW for a fact its because I had no idea my choices about lack of exercise and what I was eating would have the consequences it did, I never smoked, wasnt even tempted to binge drinking or regular drinking of alcohol, wasnt even tempted to take drugs either.

    I didnt know that my waistline was putting me at risk of what diabetes is and its worse than most people imagine it to be too.

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