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  1. #71
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Also @Ivy just renecently this new h1n1 vaccine called pandemrix Pandemrix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has caused several cases(at least 60 known) of narcolepsy in finland alone(around 5 million population). Some adjuvant on it triggers a the gene for narcolepsy, which usually is not activated at any point of life.

    From that wiki page:
    In August 2010, The Swedish Medical Products Agency (MPA) and The Finnish National Institute for Health and Welfare (THL) launched investigations regarding the acquirement of narcolepsy as a possible side effect to Pandemrix flu vaccination in children,[5] and found a minimum 6.6 fold increased risk among children and youths, resulting in a minimum of 3.6 additional cases of narcolepsy per 100.000 vaccinated subjects.[6]
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #72
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Actually this is all non true.

    From wikipedia : Thiomersal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Aluminium does get out of our system for the most part quite fast when ingested(silica helps to remove it), but not so easily when injected(thats a whole another thing than ingesting it).

    Also its funny that you mentioned baby formulas. Even tho they contain aluminium(in disturbingly large amounts btw), it doesent mean that its good for kids.

    This paper is clearly outdated(from 2003), because the paper i posted to lark clearly says other things(published in 2007).
    None of it is "non true." Thimerosal WAS removed from most vaccines, as I said, in 2001. I didn't think I needed to specify "in the developed world," since I assume we pretty much all live there.

    From your Wikipedia link:

    "Its use as a vaccine preservative was controversial, and it was phased out from routine childhood vaccines in the United States, the European Union, and a few other countries in response to popular fears.[4] The current scientific consensus is that no convincing scientific evidence supports these fears.[5][6]"

    and

    "Outside North America and Europe, many vaccines contain thiomersal; the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more expensive single-dose administration.[12] The United Nations Environment Program backed away from an earlier proposal of adding thiomersal in vaccines to the list of banned compounds in a treaty aimed at reducing exposure to mercury worldwide.[13] Citing medical and scientific consensus that thiomersal in vaccines posed no safety issues, but that eliminating the preservative in multi-dose vaccines, primarily used in developing countries, will lead to high cost and a requirement for refrigeration which the developing countries can ill afford, the UN’s final decision is to exclude thiomersal from the treaty.[14]"

    Nothing you posted contradicts anything I posted about ethylmercury vs methylmercury (which is not outdated considering it's pretty much chemistry 101). Your later study addressed aluminum and squalene adjuvants, not thimerosal or even aluminum alone (squalene is srs bsns), and it bears mentioning that the anthrax vaccine itself has since been ruled out as the cause of Gulf War Syndrome (though there is some speculation that there was a contaminated batch that may have contributed).

    Gulf War syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Iraq had loaded anthrax, botulinum toxin, and aflatoxin into missiles and artillery shells in preparing for the Gulf War and these munitions were deployed to four locations in Iraq.[34] During Operation Desert Storm, 41% of U.S. combat soldiers and 75% of UK combat soldiers were vaccinated against anthrax.[35] Reactions included local skin irritation, some lasting for weeks or months.[36] While the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the vaccine, it never went through large-scale clinical trials, unlike most other vaccines in the United States.[37] While recent studies have demonstrated the vaccine is highly reactogenic,[38] there is no clear evidence or epidemiological studies on Gulf War veterans linking the vaccine to Gulf War Syndrome. Combining this with the lack of symptoms from current deployments of individuals who have received the vaccine led the Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses to conclude that the vaccine is not a likely cause of Gulf War illness for most ill veterans.[6]"
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  3. #73
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    None of it is "non true." Thimerosal WAS removed from most vaccines, as I said, in 2001. I didn't think I needed to specify "in the developed world," since I assume we pretty much all live there.

    From your Wikipedia link:

    "Its use as a vaccine preservative was controversial, and it was phased out from routine childhood vaccines in the United States, the European Union, and a few other countries in response to popular fears.[4] The current scientific consensus is that no convincing scientific evidence supports these fears.[5][6]"

    and

    "Outside North America and Europe, many vaccines contain thiomersal; the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more expensive single-dose administration.[12] The United Nations Environment Program backed away from an earlier proposal of adding thiomersal in vaccines to the list of banned compounds in a treaty aimed at reducing exposure to mercury worldwide.[13] Citing medical and scientific consensus that thiomersal in vaccines posed no safety issues, but that eliminating the preservative in multi-dose vaccines, primarily used in developing countries, will lead to high cost and a requirement for refrigeration which the developing countries can ill afford, the UN’s final decision is to exclude thiomersal from the treaty.[14]"

    Nothing you posted contradicts anything I posted about ethylmercury vs methylmercury (which is not outdated considering it's pretty much chemistry 101). Your later study addressed aluminum and squalene adjuvants, not thimerosal or even aluminum alone (squalene is srs bsns), and it bears mentioning that the anthrax vaccine itself has since been ruled out as the cause of Gulf War Syndrome (though there is some speculation that there was a contaminated batch that may have contributed).

    Gulf War syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Iraq had loaded anthrax, botulinum toxin, and aflatoxin into missiles and artillery shells in preparing for the Gulf War and these munitions were deployed to four locations in Iraq.[34] During Operation Desert Storm, 41% of U.S. combat soldiers and 75% of UK combat soldiers were vaccinated against anthrax.[35] Reactions included local skin irritation, some lasting for weeks or months.[36] While the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the vaccine, it never went through large-scale clinical trials, unlike most other vaccines in the United States.[37] While recent studies have demonstrated the vaccine is highly reactogenic,[38] there is no clear evidence or epidemiological studies on Gulf War veterans linking the vaccine to Gulf War Syndrome. Combining this with the lack of symptoms from current deployments of individuals who have received the vaccine led the Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses to conclude that the vaccine is not a likely cause of Gulf War illness for most ill veterans.[6]"
    Sorry i misread as "has been removed from vaccines".

    But still as for whether or not aluminium in vaccines is perfectly safe for everyone:

    Quote Originally Posted by from that paper i posted earlier
    Young, male colony CD-1 mice were injected with the adjuvants at doses equivalent to those given to US military service personnel. All mice were subjected to a battery of motor and cognitive-behavioral tests over a 6-mo period postinjections. Following sacrifice, central nervous system tissues were examined using immunohistochemistry for evidence of inflammation and cell death. Behavioral testing showed motor deficits in the aluminum treatment group that expressed as a progressive decrease in strength measured by the wire-mesh hang test (final deficit at 24 wk; about 50%). Significant cognitive deficits in water-maze learning were observed in the combined aluminum and squalene group (4.3 errors per trial) compared with the controls (0.2 errors per trial) after 20 wk. Apoptotic neurons were identified in aluminum-injected animals that showed significantly increased activated caspase-3 labeling in lumbar spinal cord (255%) and primary motor cortex (192%) compared with the controls. Aluminum-treated groups also showed significant motor neuron loss (35%) and increased numbers of astrocytes (350%) in the lumbar spinal cord. The findings suggest a possible role for the aluminum adjuvant in some neurological features associated with GWI and possibly an additional role for the combination of adjuvants.
    Conclusion: Its a risk, but whether or not the risk is worth it, people should have the freedom to consider it themselves, instead of government forcing people to take them by penalizing people who dont want to take the risk. Also since no one on earth is capable of seeing the possible side effects that some vaccines may have in 50 years, it would be foolish to force people to take them in order to save a few bucks now, because it might cost shit loads of more money or peoples health later.
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  4. #74
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    If vaccination works, then why would those who are vaccinated want the unvaccinated to stay away from them?

  5. #75
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    NO. Segregation is the most stupid idea EVER. People should be together- not apart. It sickens me to see people isolated from one another just because they are different. That's bulls**t. You know what's even more messed up? It's the vaccine companies that are in it for money. That is so sick and twisted. I am appalled that people would ever do such a thing. Their whole purpose of the vaccines is to help others--not engage in selfish indulgences like bathing in money while you are altering the health of others. It's fine to have money, but make it in a healthy way. Why would people be so ignorant as to put something in their body that could harm them? The vaccine companies are evil and they only want to destroy everyone, but then again--the deaths control the population. I do not want to cause conflict and an argument. Please don't fight against one another.
    "...Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
    I doubted if I should ever come back.
    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."
    -The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

  6. #76
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Segregation is a violation of the rights of the individual. (Refer to the American Civil Rights Movement.) Segregation of those who do not take a vaccine is only one step away from mandating the vaccine, and most would agree that it is a powerful form of social coercion. Sacrificing the rights of the individual, for the common "greater" good sometimes sounds like a good idea. But, we have to ask ourselves what both the practical and philosophical gains and losses are. One of the main tenets of the Nazi Party in Germany was that the common good was the greater good.

    What lesson did we learn from that? Well, as one example, the Nuremberg Code. Its principles form the foundation of modern medical treatment and research ethics.

    From: The Nuremberg Code–A critique
    The Nuremberg Code has served as a foundation for ethical clinical research since its publication 60 years ago. This landmark document, developed in response to the horrors of human experimentation done by Nazi physicians and investigators, focused crucial attention on the fundamental rights of research participants and on the responsibilities of investigators. It was prepared at a very momentous occasion, following the formal surrender of Germany at the end of the Second World War.

    The Allied Commanders were well aware of the atrocities committed by the German Forces, on civilians and prisoners of war, and prosecuted the leading German authorities. Popularly known as the Nuremberg Trials, these were a series of military tribunals, held by the victorious Allied forces, wherein prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany were prosecuted. The trials were held in the city of Nuremberg, Bavaria, Germany, in 1945-1946, at the Palace of Justice.

    The first and best known of these trials was the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, which tried 22 of the most important captured leaders of Nazi Germany, though several key architects of the war (such as Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler and Josef Goebbels) had committed suicide before the trials began. The initial trials were held between November 20, 1945 and October 1, 1946. These trials are graphically described by Albert Speer in his book "Spandau-The Secret Diaries."[1]

    Article 1 of the Nuremberg Code happens to be very relevant here. (boldface emphasis mine, from http://history.nih.gov/research/downloads/nuremberg.pdf)

    The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him/her to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonable to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.

  7. #77
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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  8. #78
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    People who choose not to protect themselves for other reasons than finance -who should be helped out- should be kept in glassess of jar.
    Kiddin'
    They will be capable of bringing a damage that can be impossible to pay it by any kind of punishment.
    A damage should've better not happened.
    A seriouse damage threatens wordl wide shall not happen if it has such a basic possible solution.
    Haha hear it frim me these are words of order.
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    "I am a conventionally educated medical doctor who was a participant in the conventional system from 1989 until 2011. During those years I saw how often that approach fails patients and creates new diseases. "

    - Suzanne Humphries, MD

    One need not be a doctor to have come to the same realization, in bold. Thanks for the link, AGA. Her video was excellent.
    The future is for the unafraid.
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  10. #80
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Makes me wonder about some causes of asthma, diabetes, eczema, and ASD, among other things...
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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