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  1. #61
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm glad that most anti-vaxers are highly open and opinionated and easy to spot as a result, everyone should exercise their God given right to dissociate from them if they so choose.

    I mean its unlikely to be their attitude to disease control alone which is indicated by their anti-vax opinions but a host of other views too, such as their view of social responsibility, attitude to science, medicine, public health, even politics.

    Anti-vax politics to me is a moteley mix of libertarianism, anti-statism, extreme individualism, luddism etc., even some gross backwoods anti-semitism of the secret government, global finance cabal, illuminati jew variety, I dont want to hang with or associate with those people. Too much crazy and stupid.
    And you have studied the topic(not just vaccines, but also mercury and aluminium accumulation over time) a lot and with an open mind?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    And you have studied the topic(not just vaccines, but also mercury and aluminium accumulation over time) a lot and with an open mind?
    What your really mean to say is how can I not be persuaded of your point, and the answer is no, no I find it singularly unpersuasive.

    You may now discuss at length the unrelated topic of my openmindedness or closemindedness

  3. #63
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What your really mean to say is how can I not be persuaded of your point, and the answer is no, no I find it singularly unpersuasive.

    You may now discuss at length the unrelated topic of my openmindedness or closemindedness
    Id rather have a discussion about side effects of aluminium and mercury accumulating on our bodies over time and how vaccines(which include those amongst other things) play part in that. But unless you are familiar with the subject, im sure there wont be any proper discussion about that, it would be just me trying to teach you and you most likely refusing listening to me with an open mind..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #64
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Vaccines Contain Harmful Preservatives, Adjuvants, Additives, or Residuals?

    Thimerosal (the mercury-containing compound) has not been present in most vaccines since 2001. The circumstances of its removal were complex, mostly based on the assumption that the effects of ethylmercury (the substance thimerosal metabolizes into in the body) were the same at the same exposure levels as those of methylmercury (a mercury-containing compound that is proven harmful at certain doses). But methylmercury has a half-life in the body of about 50 days, while ethylmercury's is about 7 days, so they don't accumulate at the same rates, and ethylmercury has not been shown to be harmful at small exposures such as those in vaccines, as methylmercury was. So there's no evidence that the thimerosal that used to be in vaccines was actually harmful- it was removed as a precaution and to allay fears.

    Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements on Earth- it's in the water, air, and soil, and we are constantly exposed to it naturally. Aluminum occurs in most vaccines at about the same level as a liter of infant formula. The half life of elimination of aluminum from the body is about 24 hours. There is no evidence that the small amount of aluminum in vaccines, which are by nature an occasional occurrence and the exposure is quickly metabolized by the body, is harmful.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    or we could vaccinate the world against anti-vaccers

    might be easier then getting them vaccinate. you don't want your kids to get vaccinated? ok *kills the family*


    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Id rather have a discussion about side effects of aluminium and mercury accumulating on our bodies over time and how vaccines(which include those amongst other things) play part in that. But unless you are familiar with the subject, im sure there wont be any proper discussion about that, it would be just me trying to teach you and you most likely refusing listening to me with an open mind..
    Yeah, you'd rather change the discussion from what it is, a discussion of vaccination, to another discussion altogether.

    The "its poisoning" is not a new objection to vaccination, its the objection to flouridation of water and pretty much any and all innovations of a health or medicinal nature from the beginning of time.

    Which easily sedgeways into the question of if there is poisoning who are the poisoners and what are their motives, at which point you get all the usual nonsense about illuminati, corporate greed, jew bankers etc.

    I choose not to go down that road and I choose to not go with your reframing of the discussion, as to your final invoking of open mindedness, I respond really badly to any sort of off topic pressurisation in discussions, whether its the stupid variety, ie "object and terrorists win", or more sophisticated, ie "agree or you are close minded". Its one of the benefits of being inner or tradition directed rather than other directed.

  7. #67
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, you'd rather change the discussion from what it is, a discussion of vaccination, to another discussion altogether.

    The "its poisoning" is not a new objection to vaccination, its the objection to flouridation of water and pretty much any and all innovations of a health or medicinal nature from the beginning of time.

    Which easily sedgeways into the question of if there is poisoning who are the poisoners and what are their motives, at which point you get all the usual nonsense about illuminati, corporate greed, jew bankers etc.

    I choose not to go down that road and I choose to not go with your reframing of the discussion, as to your final invoking of open mindedness, I respond really badly to any sort of off topic pressurisation in discussions, whether its the stupid variety, ie "object and terrorists win", or more sophisticated, ie "agree or you are close minded". Its one of the benefits of being inner or tradition directed rather than other directed.
    Its a fact that aluminium is used in vaccines because it makes the vaccine work better, there is no conspiracy about government trying to poison people or what ever.

    Here is an article on respectable science paper about effects of aluminium adjuvant which is used in vaccines: Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron d... - PubMed - NCBI And since you most likely are going to say something like "why arent there more studies about this?", i can answer it. Firstly this paper was ignored by many, because people dont want to deal with this kind of stuff, so its easier to ignore. Some researchers said that this is something that really should be investigated further, but because the nature of the topic, its better to leave it alone, so there havent been many follow up studies, most likely because there arent better(or even nearly as good) non toxic adjuvants around.

    Here is a talk from an aluminium researcher(you can read something about him in video description): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKfbkeQyw84 . I didnt notice there was this longer version of this talk here before i watched some 20 min version of the talk.

    This is something that just scratches the surface, but its something to start from if you are able to digest some of this jew banker illuminati nonsense.

    What comes to what open-mindedness is, well this explain it quite well, nothing much i need to add to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

    But lets stay on topic.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Its a fact that aluminium is used in vaccines because it makes the vaccine work better, there is no conspiracy about government trying to poison people or what ever.

    Here is an article on respectable science paper about effects of aluminium adjuvant which is used in vaccines: Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron d... - PubMed - NCBI And since you most likely are going to say something like "why arent there more studies about this?", i can answer it. Firstly this paper was ignored by many, because people dont want to deal with this kind of stuff, so its easier to ignore. Some researchers said that this is something that really should be investigated further, but because the nature of the topic, its better to leave it alone, so there havent been many follow up studies, most likely because there arent better(or even nearly as good) non toxic adjuvants around.

    Here is a talk from an aluminium researcher(you can read something about him in video description): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKfbkeQyw84 . I didnt notice there was this longer version of this talk here before i watched some 20 min version of the talk.

    This is something that just scratches the surface, but its something to start from if you are able to digest some of this jew banker illuminati nonsense.

    What comes to what open-mindedness is, well this explain it quite well, nothing much i need to add to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

    But lets stay on topic.
    Providing links is no substitute for a persuasive point, and all of what you have posted there, as I have already ably stated in an understandable way, is essentially off topic.

    The question is whether or not people who refuse vaccination should be segregated, it is not why do people who refuse vaccination do so, as I said before, and I'm saying again and I will not say a further time, you wish to reframe the debate and I am not choosing to do so.

    It doesnt matter to me what the reason is, and as I said before the "its got aluminium in" is just another version of "its poison", which is the same as its "causes autism", "has nanites in", "has rfid tagging in", "has chemical tracers in" etc. etc. etc. ad paranoid infinitum.

    Now, however you choose to rationalise it, the decision you are validating is not to vax, you are an anti-vaxer, so the question you want to answer is whether or not you believe you anti-vaxers should be segregated.

    If you think that vaxers are close minded etc. etc. then perhaps you would consider segregation a good idea, after all what do all the "enlightened" anti-vaxers want to keep the company of all the close minded, self poisoners for anyway? Go your own way and ditch the modern medicine, go Amish to the max and if disease doesnt get you all you'll have to worry about is not getting run down by a horse and buggy.

  9. #69
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Providing links is no substitute for a persuasive point, and all of what you have posted there, as I have already ably stated in an understandable way, is essentially off topic.

    The question is whether or not people who refuse vaccination should be segregated, it is not why do people who refuse vaccination do so, as I said before, and I'm saying again and I will not say a further time, you wish to reframe the debate and I am not choosing to do so.

    It doesnt matter to me what the reason is, and as I said before the "its got aluminium in" is just another version of "its poison", which is the same as its "causes autism", "has nanites in", "has rfid tagging in", "has chemical tracers in" etc. etc. etc. ad paranoid infinitum.

    Now, however you choose to rationalise it, the decision you are validating is not to vax, you are an anti-vaxer, so the question you want to answer is whether or not you believe you anti-vaxers should be segregated.

    If you think that vaxers are close minded etc. etc. then perhaps you would consider segregation a good idea, after all what do all the "enlightened" anti-vaxers want to keep the company of all the close minded, self poisoners for anyway? Go your own way and ditch the modern medicine, go Amish to the max and if disease doesnt get you all you'll have to worry about is not getting run down by a horse and buggy.
    Ofc its relevant why people refuse to take vaccines to whether or not not taking vaccines should be punished or not. Its the most relevant thing to this discussion. Not being willing to investigate on topic, but still forming strong opinions about it, is pretty much the definition of close mindedness..

    What comes to close mindedness, you clearly didnt even read my post properly because i explained my position to vaccines pretty clearly and clearly said why im not anti-vaccine, even tho i have decided not to take vaccines in my current life situation. Also i never said that people who take vaccines are close minded, you having that opinion about me, but not even trying to see my perspective is again very much the definition of close mindedness.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #70
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Vaccines Contain Harmful Preservatives, Adjuvants, Additives, or Residuals?

    Thimerosal (the mercury-containing compound) has not been present in most vaccines since 2001. The circumstances of its removal were complex, mostly based on the assumption that the effects of ethylmercury (the substance thimerosal metabolizes into in the body) were the same at the same exposure levels as those of methylmercury (a mercury-containing compound that is proven harmful at certain doses). But methylmercury has a half-life in the body of about 50 days, while ethylmercury's is about 7 days, so they don't accumulate at the same rates, and ethylmercury has not been shown to be harmful at small exposures such as those in vaccines, as methylmercury was. So there's no evidence that the thimerosal that used to be in vaccines was actually harmful- it was removed as a precaution and to allay fears.

    Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements on Earth- it's in the water, air, and soil, and we are constantly exposed to it naturally. Aluminum occurs in most vaccines at about the same level as a liter of infant formula. The half life of elimination of aluminum from the body is about 24 hours. There is no evidence that the small amount of aluminum in vaccines, which are by nature an occasional occurrence and the exposure is quickly metabolized by the body, is harmful.
    Actually this is all non true.

    From wikipedia :
    In the United States, countries in the European Union and a few other affluent countries, thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccination schedules.[4] In the U.S., the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older than two years.[10] Several vaccines that are not routinely recommended for young children do contain thiomersal, including DT (diphtheria and tetanus), Td (tetanus and diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace of thiomersal from steps in manufacture.[7]
    Thiomersal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Aluminium does get out of our system for the most part quite fast when ingested(silica helps to remove it), but not so easily when injected(thats a whole another thing than ingesting it).

    Also its funny that you mentioned baby formulas. Even tho they contain aluminium(in disturbingly large amounts btw), it doesent mean that its good for kids.

    This paper is clearly outdated(from 2003), because the paper i posted to lark clearly says other things(published in 2007).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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